Adult games's news

Tips, techniques and tutorials about creation tools.

Re: Adult games's news

Postby Crane » Mon, 18Jan29 22:06

MaxCarna wrote:
They updated their rules on december, specifically Community Guidelines, the Terms of Use remains the same.

-----------------------------

I'm probing some of the biggest games:

One of them, Dreams of Desire, just changed the names inside the game, like "mom" become "landlady", all the images are the same. It seems to be working. There is a patch to rename everything. If this is the way, honestly it is a very hypocrite measure from Patreon.

Big Brother's creator didn't decide what to do yet. Summertime Saga seems not to have been bothered yet. Dating My Daughter seems to be shut down, with this title it would hardly scape.


I guess i was wrong. The old guideline was much more harsh. This is what i found:

Patreon is not for pornography, but some of the world’s most beautiful and historically significant art often depicts nudity and sexual expression. Because of that, we allow nudity and suggestive imagery, as long as it is marked NSFW. Think of the policy as allowing “R Rated” movies... but not porn. In keeping with our strong commitment to safety, we have zero tolerance for content that sexualizes children in any way. The glorification of rape and sexual violence is also not ok, Patreon reserves the right to review and remove accounts that may violate this guideline.

Now i`m pretty sure almost every adult game doesn't fit for "R Rated" movies. They are more than "explicit nudity". So the new guideline is practically legalizing and assuring the adult game sector. The incest games will go with the patch, and maybe so will the rape/violence sex and even cp. Don't know if there's a bestiality/furry game being suspended or under review.

Again, i'm not saying that this is right, or that patreons and Devs should just shut up. They should speak up just as religious or political zelots pressure on businesses to impose their agenda. But all this is not Patreon's fault.

And i don't know if it's a hypocrisy. When you impose the rules you don't go and punish everyone. You punish some so everyone changes its attitude.
User avatar
Crane
great white shark
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu, 17Feb09 04:10
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby MaxCarna » Mon, 18Jan29 23:05

Crane wrote:And i don't know if it's a hypocrisy. When you impose the rules you don't go and punish everyone. You punish some so everyone changes its attitude.


I meant hypocrisy regarding the aspect of just changing the title of a character make the game being in compliance.

Like "It Is ok if your young character decide to corrompe and fuck the mature lady that he seems to live with his whole life. Just don't call her "mom" or "auntie".
User avatar
MaxCarna
lagoon predator
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed, 16Jun15 06:01
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby Greyelf » Tue, 18Jan30 23:08

MaxCarna wrote:With the crypto currencies explosion, what about a Patreon's like portal where you receive ethereum, zcash... ?

I believe the current issues with using crypto currencies instead of the traditional solutions are:

a. Many have a fluctuating exchange rate which makes it difficult to control exactly how much you are paying on a regular basis and their current worth. (think buying/selling shares)
b. They can be harder to use and can result in more charges & free due to number of steps between "money in your account" to "money in the other person's account"
c. People are weary of trusting their financial information to these new and relatively unknown crypto-currency companies.
d. There are currently too many crypto-currency companies to choose from, and people are worried that they will choose one that doesn't last. (think buying the wrong shares)
e. The current usage of crypto-currency by both individuals and companies is fairly small, so people are worried that they may be a passing fad.
Greyelf
star of the reef
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu, 14Jun12 03:20
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby MaxCarna » Fri, 18Mar02 22:33

This time Summertime Saga went down

He has more than 8k supporters, the page is blocked
User avatar
MaxCarna
lagoon predator
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed, 16Jun15 06:01
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby Greyelf » Sat, 18Mar03 01:06

MaxCarna wrote:This time Summertime Saga went down

He has more than 8k supporters, the page is blocked

That's sad, but not totally unexpected due to the content type of parts of it's main story line.
Greyelf
star of the reef
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu, 14Jun12 03:20
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Thu, 18Mar08 23:18

The probable reason for this crackdown is payment processors, including the likes of Paypal and CCBill.

I had discussed this with met-art in the past, asking why certain sets were taken down (though images were still used for advertising and promotion). I believe they let out more than they should, but they admitted that CCBill demanded they remove content where the women posing looked "too young."
Case in point, Josephine by Peter Dominic. The pics were shot when the girl was in her early twenties and in university, but they were still asked to take them down.
Other sites were apparently similarly affected (Karup's comes to mind), with a lot of legacy content for which there was no satisfactory paperwork for 18 U.S.C. 2257 was simply removed and never posted again. Which is silly since there is no such provision for old content, only for new one, and other sites (ATK Archives) kept the same content online -- it seems they were more willing to take this to court should there be a dispute.

It's bad business practice. Patreon is already suspect for many creators due to their willingness in introducing arbitrary fees and actions such as these only serve to underline that they're not going to cater to creators that bring them the most money.
Which is fine, as long as they're open about refusing their content and their patronage. As far as I can tell, however, they're hypocrites since they're unwilling to draw a line, refuse the content and the money that goes along with it.

The biggest problem for them is, the content they're taking down is not even illegal. There might be some technicalities in certain jurisdictions, but the world is vast and ultimately, as long as the patronage service and questionable content is hosted elsewhere, it's going to be back.
Give it time. In a month or two there's going to be another patronage site, catering specifically to the most deviant games, where payments might be processed in bitcoin, or by the more unscrupulous payment processors (and there are plenty).
Which might be exactly what's needed for some creators that form global teams. They might be able to avoid some of the taxation if money from European patrons goes directly to European creators (or to the part of the team based in Europe), money from US patrons goes to US teams, and other income is distributed similarly.

There's Drip by Kickstarter coming soon. Some creators might find respite there, before it eventually cracks down on them in the same way, but it gives time for somebody else to launch a global patronage service with no enforceable rules. Patreon will then look back at their decision and realize it was a mistake.
yahoo
great white shark
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon, 15Jul13 18:31
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby Greyelf » Thu, 18Mar08 23:51

yahoo wrote:the content they're taking down is not even illegal.
The incest (and possible the other restricted content types) is illegal in the legal region (eg. state) that the company itself is based in, and it is definitely illegal in a number of the other legal regions that ACCESS their web-site / payment services.

But whether or not the restricted content types are legal or not is irreverent, the company have the legal rights to determine what content they allow on their site and to restrict what purposes Users can used their payment services to collect money for. (as long as the company doesn't break any related laws/regulations while doing so)

It is the second right that effects developers that host their projects (that contain restricted content) on other sites from using that company's payment services to fund that project's development, and it's the same right that allows that company to stop 'Real Bad Guys' from using the company's services to fund 'Real Bad Things'.
Greyelf
star of the reef
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu, 14Jun12 03:20
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Fri, 18Mar09 14:22

Incest itself, that is, sex between relatives (blood and adopted or assumed) as an activity, is illegal.

However, when it comes to descriptions or depictions of incest, they're not illegal. Especially not in case of fictional characters, whether they're drawn, rendered or even photographed (assuming they're actors and not actual relatives).
Just so you don't reply that "underage characters are illegal even when not real", is that there's a fundamental difference in that not only sexual activity with a child is illegal, but this extends to all depictions of undressed minors and includes reasonably accurate renders (as in drawings, 3D, etc.), too.

Making descriptions of incest illegal means a lot of classical and religious literature becomes illegal, including the Bible.

And actually, Patreon has no right to restrict any content as long as it's legal. Restricting legal access to a business, regardless of motive, is not legal, and in case of US, is not legal even if motivated by actual religious convictions, so good luck to Patreon trying to defend this position.

Oh, and just for the record, you should fully expect Patreon to expand their list of restricted content. Next up, furries, BDSM, and any hint of less than 150% consensual sex.
yahoo
great white shark
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon, 15Jul13 18:31
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby tlaero » Sat, 18Mar10 05:55

Imagine two choices.

1) Patreon does what just about every other place does and bans all NSFW content, thus completely shutting people like Mortze and I down.
2) Patreon makes the changes they need to make to not be forced to do #1.

I side with #2. And I'm speaking as someone who literally asked for permission to do a particular path in one of my games and was turned down. I'd much rather them say, "Incest is defined as any sexual relationship between relatives, and you can't show that in your games" than, "You can't show any sexual relationship in your games."

This isn't only the hand that feeds me. It's the hand that feeds you folks too. We wouldn't be able to make our games if not for Patreon. They're not hypocrites. They're business people who are helping these games get made. I'm not biting that hand, and you shouldn't either.

Tlaero
Last edited by tlaero on Sun, 18Mar11 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tlaero
Lady Tlaero, games and coding expert
 
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu, 09Jun04 23:00
sex: Female

Re: Adult games's news

Postby MaxCarna » Sat, 18Mar10 23:03

yahoo wrote:Oh, and just for the record, you should fully expect Patreon to expand their list of restricted content. Next up, furries, BDSM, and any hint of less than 150% consensual sex.


Honestly that it was what bothered at first, the rule change. You put a lot of effort and time on a project and suddenly the portal that make it viable just change a rule and you have to shutdown. Nothing stop them from expand their restrictions until the point that hits us.

Incest is definitely condemned on western culture, but I didn't image it was considered crime, especially in a country supposed to be more progressed. It wasn't in my country. But to know this give me hope that other non criminal content won't be banned so soon.

If it is illegal they should banned since the begin, really is the rule change that throws a cloud of doubts on the air. Now is just wait things settle down.

But I can not help pointing out that they do not do this philanthropically, it's a paid service and they profit from it, quite a lot.
User avatar
MaxCarna
lagoon predator
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed, 16Jun15 06:01
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Sun, 18Mar11 05:28

tlaero wrote:Imagine two choices.

1) Patreon does what just about every other place does and bans all NSFW content, thus completely shutting people like Mortze and I down.
2) Patreon makes the changes they need to make to not be forced to do #1.

I side with #2. And I'm speaking as someone who literally asked for permission to do a particular path in one of my games and was turned down.

I'm curious what it was and in what (planned?) game, but even more curious of their reply and their reason for it.

I'd much rather them say, "Incest is defined as any sexual relationship between relatives, and you can't show that in your games" than, "You can't show any sexual relationship in your games."

Yeah, but what if they decide that they are shutting down all sexual content on their site? What do you do then, other than wait for another platform to appear and move there, slowly rebuilding your supporter (and income!) base?
They've already shown that they're capable of this. They were comfortable taking money for incest content and I can only imagine that another party forced them to stop. They didn't grandfather clause these projects, they forced those authors to stop. Oh, and they didn't refund anything to supporters.
That last thing is something that Patreon will get burned on. If they're only a middleman, they shouldn't impose any rules other by law enforcement. But right now, they're putting themselves as the shop front and you're doing business with Patreon, not through them. And that makes them liable for what they do.
Since Patreon had no problem taking money from EU citizens, they're forced to obey certain EU directives, and they may be beholden to EU courts. If they force a project to be taken down, supporters can build a case against Patreon and force them to refund their pledges. And an EU court could order them to do so -- or shut them out from EU if they don't.
The only problem is, nobody will take this particular matter to court publicly (no such thing as John Doe in EU law).

This isn't only the hand that feeds me. It's the hand that feeds you folks too. We wouldn't be able to make our games if not for Patreon. They're not hypocrites. They're business people who are helping these games get made. I'm not biting that hand, and you shouldn't either.

If that hand decides to smack you, it will, you never need to bite it.
I disagree that they're not hypocrites. When they were new, they had no problems accepting some content that didn't sit well with them. Now that they grew big enough and are comfortable taking down some content, just wait for them to extend this. It's Embrace, Extend, Extinguish 2.0.
MaxCarna wrote:
yahoo wrote:Oh, and just for the record, you should fully expect Patreon to expand their list of restricted content. Next up, furries, BDSM, and any hint of less than 150% consensual sex.


Honestly that it was what bothered at first, the rule change. You put a lot of effort and time on a project and suddenly the portal that make it viable just change a rule and you have to shutdown. Nothing stop them from expand their restrictions until the point that hits us.

Exactly the point I was making. I just hope people are wise enough to stop using Patreon and an alternative will come up before that actually happens.

Incest is definitely condemned on western culture, but I didn't image it was considered crime, especially in a country supposed to be more progressed. It wasn't in my country. But to know this give me hope that other non criminal content won't be banned so soon.

It's rightly condemned, but is being challenged in some places (Canada comes to mind). Incest itself is not illegal, they can't arrest you for the act of having sex with your relative. You cannot formalize a legal union with a relative, though, and any such relationship would likely come under scrutiny to determine if both parties fully consented and that there wasn't any coercion or manipulation due to reliance or familiarity.

If it is illegal they should banned since the begin, really is the rule change that throws a cloud of doubts on the air. Now is just wait things settle down.

I think I should have pointed this out, too. Yeah, they're waiting to see the fallout, and if they can get away with this. If they do, and I imagine they will, they'll do it again for anything that doesn't sit well with them.

But I can not help pointing out that they do not do this philanthropically, it's a paid service and they profit from it, quite a lot.

I can't help to see the hypocrisy in it. They accepted and processed a lot of money for some of those projects already. It's not like they'll be refunding any of it any time soon.
yahoo
great white shark
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon, 15Jul13 18:31
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby moskys » Sun, 18Mar11 11:30

Frankly, I still don't understand all this bitterness. Their site, their business, their rules. As simple as that. They aren't doing anything wrong (although you can always implement your new rules in a better way). But all this criticism based on freedom of speech, legal/illegal content... come on. When you rely on a third party for your incomes, you're always at his hands. Companies have the right to change their policies whenever they want. And those changes always have an impact on every stakeholder and may allow new opportunities for some other companies. Businesses open and shut down every day. Artists come in and leave the stage every day. It's life. Don't be drama queens.
User avatar
moskys
lagoon predator
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri, 15Oct16 20:03
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby Mortze » Sun, 18Mar11 20:44

I'm sure I've already mentioned this before but people need to understand that freedom of speech isn't an issue here. In civilized countries freedom of speech is a right a citizen has to speak his mind against the government and against any issue that he wants to talk about in public space. When it comes to private space that right exists to the extent that the private space owner allows it. I wouldn't allow anyone to speak about anything they want in my home.
In the case of Patreon, that company reserves the right to deny access to certain opinions, or creative content in this particular case, because it's a private space. They are paying for their "digital space".
Patreon might suffer business consequences, reputation consequences, but it won't suffer legal consequences for denying any kind of content on their site. And that's the way it should be.
It has come to my knowledge that Incest (along with bestiality, minors depicted sex, necrophilia, non-consensual sex, has always been in their Guidelines, from the start. Patreon just decided to turn a blind eye on games with those themes, or was purely unaware of those games' themes (didn't played the games or checked thoroughly the Patreon pages). Anyway, those in the wrong, from the start, were the creators that violated Patreon's rules on Adult content.
Showing discontentment now that Patreon decided to enforce their INITIAL rules is nothing less than bad-faith.

The only thing a pledger and a creator can do is to check the guidelines before investing a dime or time in Patreon. If you do so, and see that Patreon doesn't accept Incest theme, it's entirely your responsibility to invest money or time in it. It doesn't matter if Incest is being accepted or not. Patreon reserves the absolute right to enforce its rules, or not, when and how it wants.

It would be a very different thing if they decided to shut down any type of adult content, because the guidelines, as we speak, never forbade it. That would be, a very harsh and unfair - yet very legal - decision from Patreon. Paypal did just that. But Paypal is a big player that can afford that sort of dirty trick. Patreon can't.
User avatar
Mortze
legend of the South Seas
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed, 14Oct29 02:34
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby MaxCarna » Mon, 18Mar12 00:45

Mortze wrote:Showing discontentment now that Patreon decided to enforce their INITIAL rules is nothing less than bad-faith.


We have checked that, there was a change on last december on the Community Guidelines, where they added the incest restriction. Terms of Use didn't change.

But's fine, I don't use incest, I was afraid of a future change that could affect my game without previous warning.

moskys wrote:Don't be drama queens.


It is not about a drama, is a business risk, discussed among independent developers, which is the point here. We are not going to Patreon space make a protest or something, we are sharing info and discussing possibilities.

For me the purpose was met when some people pointed out the incest is illegal where Patreon is based. This mitiged the risk that other themes could be menaced.
User avatar
MaxCarna
lagoon predator
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed, 16Jun15 06:01
sex: Masculine

Re: Adult games's news

Postby tlaero » Mon, 18Mar12 03:57

On the other hand, this discussion has been useful for me. It's kept me up to date on these restrictions and let me know when I had to check whether my plans were going to get me banned. We're certainly not saying that the discussion is bad. I just think that there's a lot to appreciate with Patreon, and that their positives far outweigh their negatives. These are all business decisions being made by humans. The decisions are not vindictive and the humans are not infallible. It's good to keep both points in mind if you find yourself getting angry about the changes. There's little room for anger in business.

Tlaero
User avatar
tlaero
Lady Tlaero, games and coding expert
 
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu, 09Jun04 23:00
sex: Female

PreviousNext

Return to The workshop of creators

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

eXTReMe Tracker