English 101

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English 101

Postby Skelaturi » Wed, 16Aug10 19:29

For those who want to talk about universal language, with all her forms. (American, British, Scottish, Australian, etc) Be warned those that engage in the discussion here, might be in a shock when i give them a homework assignment on reading Shakespeare's works.
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Re: English 101

Postby Mortze » Wed, 16Aug10 19:30

Great. Finally a post about Esperanto!
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Re: English 101

Postby Greyelf » Thu, 16Aug11 00:21

Mortze wrote:Great. Finally a post about Esperanto!

It is an interesting (if limited used) exercise in designing a language, and is a contrast to one that was organically grown over time.
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Re: English 101

Postby tlaero » Thu, 16Aug11 00:35

Kinda "designed by committee" though. Rather than make tough choices, they tried to appease everyone and ended up with a mess. That and the fact that no one speaks it. I suspect you'd be better off learning Klingon that Esperanto. At least you could use that at conventions.

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Re: English 101

Postby muttdoggy » Thu, 16Aug11 06:12

English is a language riddled with contradictions. Exceptions to rules like "I before E except after C". And I haven't even gotten started. There's a laundry list of exceptions. Words with similar spellings pronounced differently like "bough", "through" and "rough". The same "ough" can be said as ow, oo, and uff. The you have to factor in that English has a unique order in which to put our adjectives we use to describe nouns and verbs. Flip a couple adjectives and you've completely destroyed what you meant to say. Oh and let's run wild with homophones!!! Great example.... "I wound the gauze around the wound." [img]smile/eek.gif[/img]
No matter where you've learned your English, you've likely had moments where you've wondered "Why do I speak this infernal language of harshness and despair!" [img]images/icones/icon9.gif[/img]
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Re: English 101

Postby PinkVendeta » Thu, 16Aug11 10:19

I write in European English always, the spell checker is clearly in American English, so either it be can changed to The Queens English, which in reality is what all European English is, or You can run around expecting every European You meet here to learn to re-spell all Queens English to American English, which that epic task will be the bane of your life on this forum from now until the end of time, or You can simply accept, the forum is in Europe and Europeans speak The Queens English which constantly looks like mistakes when compared to American English, but in reality it is not mistakes.

Teens from most countries in Europe, go to England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in May until late September, they stay with families in each Country, the host family gets paid VERY well for housing them and feeding them, and while in each country from May to September they attend school, they are taught solely English both spoken and written and the English being taught in the summer schools in each named Country is The Queens English, when they return home to their Countries in Europe, they are writing and speaking The Queens English, and each year they return again until they reach the age of 18.

So when I say I speak European English, I do, but it is The Queens English I speak and write as do most if not all countries within the European Union, and then You have all the Countries that were once a part of the British Empire back in the hey day, any people in those countries who still speak and write English, all of them do it using The Queens English also.

So the clear reality is this, there are more people on this entire planet who speak and write The Queens English, than there are who speak and write American English, and American English is just a guttural form of The Queens English, which all Americans were using up until 1776 until they kicked out the Red Coats.
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Re: English 101

Postby Greyelf » Thu, 16Aug11 15:16

You may find that some countries like Australia don't actually speak The Queens English but a regional variation of it, similar to the way that the people from the United States of America do. You will also find that the Australians even have their own dictionary.
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Re: English 101

Postby PinkVendeta » Thu, 16Aug11 15:56

Most other countries in the known world have their own dictionary's, their own languages, and their own terminology and differences for use for The Queens English in daily life, but the base used for all such things is The Queens English, there is no actual way to get away from this little fact.
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Re: English 101

Postby LRM » Thu, 16Aug11 18:48

For anyone struggling with British versus American/whatever language this may help: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dict ... glish/damn .
You can actually click the speaker and hear different pronunciations.
Judging by the logo and the .org it's maintained, or minimally endorsed, by the University of Cambridge. Is that British enough?
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Re: English 101

Postby PinkVendeta » Thu, 16Aug11 22:30

There is a sum of 4000 words at present that are both pronounced differently and have different meanings between American English and The Queens English, then there are literally thousands of words that are spelled differently between the two also.

Dont get me wrong here, the term: The Queens English actually offends me, as I am not a subject of the Queen, nor am I English either :lol: and never once from childhood in school, to my teens in school to college, did the Queen ever sit in even once at the top of the class to teach us all The Queens English which is named after her and her Mother and her Mother and so on :lol: so she just picked up the accolade and did nothing for it [img]smile/eek.gif[/img] .

But none the less, it is named how it is named and it is the base for most if not all correctly written, spoken and reading of English in most of the known world.
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Re: English 101

Postby Greebo » Thu, 16Aug11 23:27

Skelaturi wrote:Be warned those that engage in the discussion here, might be in a shock when i give them a homework assignment on reading Shakespeare's works.

I've enjoyed a lot of performances by the Royal Shakespeare Company -- a couple in Stratford upon Avon thirty odd years ago (The Taming of the Shrew -- I remember Petruchio rode a motorcycle onto the stage! -- and The Tempest) when my wife and I moored up in the canal basin for a couple of nights on a narrowboat cruise, and on many outings to the Barbican in London. The trouble with Shakespeare though is that you couldn't use him as a spelling reference (his was a time when you spelt words as you fancied (as you like it? [img]images/icones/icon17.gif[/img] ) even spelling his own name differently from time to time)

He was also a Tudor apologist and propagandist -- what he did to poor Richard III hardly bears thinking about, Josephine Tey's The Daughter of Time reveals a truer, better picture of the much maligned man, together with the blatant evils of the Tudors.
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Re: English 101

Postby Greebo » Fri, 16Aug12 00:34

PinkVendeta wrote:Most other countries in the known world have their own dictionary's, their own languages, and their own terminology and differences for use for The Queens English in daily life, but the base used for all such things is The Queens English, there is no actual way to get away from this little fact.

Actually, PinkyV, what you say has little factual basis that I am aware of -- I've seen much better arguments put for the recent history of this contentious little misapprehension, such as:

"The Queen's/King's English is a perceived standard which does not exist.

Received Pronunciation (RP) is a meme of the late 19th century, that one should speak with a certain accent, that of the educated of London and the southeast. It is the accent of the early BBC (est. 1922), which had an advisory committee on standardization."

Anyone wanting to know more might be better off researching "Oxford English", which covers spelling as well as pronunciation, although "Received Pronunciation" does highlight the accents broadcast around the world for over thirty years as an apparent standard to be copied for "English speaking" credibility -- I blame Lord Reith myself, not the Queen, whose accent though non representative of the average bland English (like my own) tends to be less deplorable than many would-be upper class Home County residents.

By the way, I don't have to sound bland (it's amazing I didn't end up with a lowest common denominator London cockney based accent since most of my class mates at school spoke like that) -- I'm a pretty good mimic for many accents and knowing a little dialect, when i was in my twenties I actually fooled some Austrian locals into thinking for a moment or two that they were wrong about me being English and that I was in fact an Austrian myself.
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Re: English 101

Postby PinkVendeta » Fri, 16Aug12 01:49

Greebo wrote:
PinkVendeta wrote:Most other countries in the known world have their own dictionary's, their own languages, and their own terminology and differences for use for The Queens English in daily life, but the base used for all such things is The Queens English, there is no actual way to get away from this little fact.

Actually, PinkyV, what you say has little factual basis that I am aware of -- I've seen much better arguments put for the recent history of this contentious little misapprehension, such as:

"The Queen's/King's English is a perceived standard which does not exist.

Received Pronunciation (RP) is a meme of the late 19th century, that one should speak with a certain accent, that of the educated of London and the southeast. It is the accent of the early BBC (est. 1922), which had an advisory committee on standardization."

Anyone wanting to know more might be better off researching "Oxford English", which covers spelling as well as pronunciation, although "Received Pronunciation" does highlight the accents broadcast around the world for over thirty years as an apparent standard to be copied for "English speaking" credibility -- I blame Lord Reith myself, not the Queen, whose accent though non representative of the average bland English (like my own) tends to be less deplorable than many would-be upper class Home County residents.

By the way, I don't have to sound bland (it's amazing I didn't end up with a lowest common denominator London cockney based accent since most of my class mates at school spoke like that) -- I'm a pretty good mimic for many accents and knowing a little dialect, when i was in my twenties I actually fooled some Austrian locals into thinking for a moment or two that they were wrong about me being English and that I was in fact an Austrian myself.


Actually Greeby, since we are using pet names now for each other :lol:

You stated: what I said has little factual basis that You are aware of, well there are many things that You are not clearly aware of, so let me educate You now somewhat on The Queens English right now, make sure to read it all through fully and then take a moment or two to postulate it all in your mind before You formulate what you want to say to me with an informed reply this time :lol:

This was written by: Dr Bernard Lamb, Emeritus Reader in Genetics at Imperial College London, President of the Queen's English Society and author of 'The Queen's English and How to Use It', published by Michael O' Mara Books.

The Queen's English is correct, conventional, standard British English.
It is the most authoritative and easily understood form of the language.
One finds it in non-fiction and fiction, in textbooks in almost all subjects, in newspapers, in government and business documents, and in public and private correspondence.

Departures from the Queen's English do get noticed.
The head of an online graduate recruitment agency wrote that they reject one third of all job applications from graduates with good degrees from good universities, because errors in English in their CVs and covering letters show ignorance, carelessness and a bad attitude.

The term "the Queen's English" dates back to 1592, Queen Elizabeth Ist time, but using the Queen's English is not the prerogative of royalty or any class, group, region or country.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as: "the English language as regarded as under the guardianship of the Queen; hence, standard or correct English".

Without accepted rules and conventions, and agreement on the meanings of words, there would be linguistic anarchy and lack of understanding.
The standard form of a language is the one which all people should be able to use and understand, wherever they come from, although they may prefer local variants for local communication, such as regional and ethnic versions.

The Queen's English, with correct grammar and vocabulary, can be spoken in many accents, say Indian or Australian, and in regional British accents such as those used in Birmingham, Newcastle or Glasgow.
There are extremely good users of the Queen's English in Sweden, Sri Lanka and Singapore, and very bad users of it in London, Oxford and Cambridge.
There is much ignorance, carelessness, inverted snobbery and deliberate "dumbing down", as if bad English is more socially acceptable than good English.

Standard English should be used when writing business letters, essays, reports, job applications and on all formal occasions.
Most people here use it automatically nearly all the time, without consciously thinking: "I am using the Queen's English."

Other forms of English are completely acceptable in appropriate situations.
For example, in plays or films involving characters with strong regional or ethnic dialects, the author would not write standard English for them.
A problem with non-standard English is that it can cause confusions.
For example, in Malaysia, to have an "off day" means to have a day off, not a bad day, and to "chop" a document means to rubber-stamp it, not to cut it.
In Britain, one finds people using "sick" or "wicked" to mean good, with great scope for misunderstandings.

Deviations from the Queen's English include errors in grammar, spelling, punctuation and word choice.
I heard a man on a train say: "Me and him gets on great".
The two pronouns should be in the subject case, not the object case; the verb should be plural as there are two subjects, and "great" is an adjective, when an adverb is required.
One should put oneself last, so the correct version would be: "He and I get on well."

One can have a sentence that is grammatically correct, but ambiguous, such as: "This room needs cleaning badly" or "Mary told Jane that she was pregnant." The former would be clearer as, "This room badly needs cleaning," because word order affects meaning. In the latter, the pronoun "she" could apply to either woman.

The world of advertising often uses corrupted English, as in the slogans "Beanz Meanz Heinz" and "Drinka pinta milka day".
Odd spellings are used, such as "lite" and "nite", perhaps to catch the eye by being unconventional.
These should be avoided.

It is repeatedly said that English is a living, changing language.
We do need new terms for technology or new phenomena, and English has such a large vocabulary because it has absorbed words from many languages.

The Queen's English is not fossilized and takes in new words, phrases and usages, but it should not embrace usages which blur meanings.
For example, we have clear distinctions in meaning between to effect/to affect, disinterested/uninterested, imply/infer, their/there/they're, defuse/diffuse, complimentary/complementary, fewer/less.
We lose precision and clarity if we lose those distinctions, and confusions of such words are extremely widespread.

New phrases may be worth adopting if they convey a meaning that is neat, clear and concise – such as "yummy mummy".

It is sometimes argued that grammatical rules are invalid because some great writer broke one.
That is nonsense.
Great writers understand the rules and can knowledgeably break them occasionally for specific effects such as surprise or humor.

The Queen's English observes the distinction between proper nouns, with initial capital letters, and common nouns.
A journalist correctly described Richard Branson's daughter as "Holly Branson, the Virgin heiress.
The virgin heiress" would have had quite a different meaning.

Correct punctuation is needed to convey clear meanings.
Far too many people fail to use the apostrophe correctly, if they use it at all, and are poor at using semicolons and colons.
When marking undergraduate work, I rarely saw a correctly punctuated piece by a home student.
Public documents now are often littered with errors in punctuation and grammar, as well as spelling.
A female tax officer wrote to me about my "penison" – a Freudian slip?

"The Queen's English" is sometimes used of speech, meaning the same as "received pronunciation", "Oxford English" or "BBC English" (as it used to be, but often is no longer).
For general use the Queen's English pronunciation is best, as it is the clearest and most widely understood kind.
I have sometimes found myself unable to understand announcements, at stations or on trains, because the announcer had a strong accent.
Announcements may be important for safety as well as for catching a train, and should be understandable by all.

In 2006, Co Pilot Live mobile phone satellite navigation published the results of their survey in different parts of Britain as to what type of spoken English people there wanted to hear as the voice on their sat-nav devices.
The Queen's English was the overwhelming favorite in all parts of the country, from Birmingham to Newcastle, and even in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Regional accents can be enjoyable and can help to give a local sense of identity, but for understand ability at national and international levels, standard Queen's English is best.

Some of the finest spoken English today can be heard from the morning newsreaders on BBC Radio 3, with beautiful clarity.
Compare that with speakers elsewhere who have "gonna-rrhoea" ("I'm gonna play you..."), word misuse and glottal stops ("I was li'erally gu'-ed when I missed that penalty t'night"), or wrong grammar and missed word endings ("Me an' Jim is runnin' late...").
I know which I prefer: the Queen's English, in speech and writing. Why settle for less?
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Re: English 101

Postby muttdoggy » Fri, 16Aug12 03:17

I find it interesting that there is debate over which dialect is preferred to be the golden standard for the English Language. But this is one of the side effects of being part of an empire. The French, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, and English were all recently known as being empires. Look at what has happened to each one of those languages. They all have dialects spoken in foreign countries. For the Spanish and Portuguese, we can look no further than South America. With the Dutch it's South Africa and with the French, it's southeast Asia and North America. Then with England, they've got North America and Australia. This is by no means a definitive list because each is being spoken throughout the world.
But the best example I can think of where an empire lead to dialects that spawned their own dialects, it has be Italy. The latin spoken by the Romans became the basis of Italian and eventually the Portuguese, French, and Spanish languages. Many latin words even made its way into the English language. It's still being taught and spoken today. So when you think "which form of my language is the preferred version?", you better be glad (or sad!) that at one point your country may have been an empire or was part of an empire... [img]images/icones/icon13.gif[/img]
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Re: English 101

Postby Greebo » Fri, 16Aug12 14:04

PinkVendeta wrote:Actually Greeby, since we are using pet names now for each other :lol:

You stated: what I said has little factual basis that You are aware of, well there are many things that You are not clearly aware of, so let me educate You now somewhat on The Queens English right now, make sure to read it all through fully and then take a moment or two to postulate it all in your mind before You formulate what you want to say to me with an informed reply this time :lol:

This was written by: Dr Bernard Lamb, Emeritus Reader in Genetics at Imperial College London, President of the Queen's English Society and author of 'The Queen's English and How to Use It', published by Michael O' Mara Books

Me calling you PinkyV is ancient history from back in the days when you were PinkVendetta, I'll refrain if you like -- I used to enjoy chatting to you but you have lost some of my respect I'm afraid.
I suppose I ought to bow to the wisdom vested in a venerable institution like the Queen's English Society since it has such trustworthy, ancient roots -- formed in 1972 wasn't it, by a bunch of nutters wanting to spread an almost non existent myth? :lol:
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