Games with teens - In favor or not?

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Jack_Smythe » Mon, 15Dec14 23:21

Skelaturi wrote:
Jack_Smythe wrote:
Like others have said, it is a game and therefore is fantasy. There is no law, in the US anyway, that I believe it is illegal to portray minors having sex in a fantasy setting. The laws pertain to real people.



Ehh for the US i believe there is, for Europe its debatable. Look at the Protect Act of 2003 as long as its not obscene


Thanks, Skelaturi! Wasn't aware of this law.

From what I can gather from searching, it needs to meet the 4 criteria for the Miller Obscenity test which was aimed at preventing "hardcore child pornography." There are ongoing debates about the criteria since nudity isn't covered by the Miller test due to nudity not being a hardcore act in itself. However, there is this:

"The PROTECT Act, which was signed into law in April 2003, amended child- pornography laws in several ways. First, it created a new definition of child pornography to include pornographic pictures of children that are “virtually indistinguishable” from actual children. It also requires defendants to prove that the images they possess or distribute were not made with and do not depict actual children."

Second, works of serious caliber trump the Miller test since the fourth requisite of the Miller test is: "Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." They put this clause in so books, scientific studies, and other child sex related issues could still be addressed and they are operating under the assumption that pornography is inherently not serious enough in nature to qualify. A good literary example is in Stephen King's It where he portrayed a hardcore sex act among the 12 year old child protagonists of the novel. They took turns sleeping with the only girl in the group to solidify their bond and power to fight Pennywise. Since it is a serious work of literary fiction, I'm under the understanding that it does not conform to the Miller test which is why I can still buy the book. Then again, I'm not even close to being a lawyer!

There are "virtual" sections of the law and they state the same thing saying that the character portrayed should not be based on or LOOK like a real child.

By the way, I agree with everything the Protect Act is trying to accomplish and it's why this is such a great topic for discussion. I personally think that there are plenty of settings and topics that authors can create or use that involve 18+ year old characters. I say just avoid underage sex altogether in your works and keep it 18+ or as someone suggested, never disclose the age of the character and make sure they look old enough to be 18 even though they may be younger in your head.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby LRM » Mon, 15Dec14 23:57

And just to satisfy the really hardcore... occasionally, very intelligent children well below the age of consent attend college classes. Engage your imaginations.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Tue, 15Dec15 00:17

LRM wrote:And just to satisfy the really hardcore... occasionally, very intelligent children well below the age of consent attend college classes. Engage your imaginations.
LRM


Imagination led me to their mom's instead. Young geniuses are usually going to be (over)protected by the parents. And relatively speaking the parents are going to be younger in comparison to the parents of the other students. Kid go to bed, mommy is gonna party
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A sexual position which allows both participants to watch TV.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby LRM » Tue, 15Dec15 00:31

The really pro and the really anti will find the necessary tools to bolster their argument. Whether it's based in reality or not.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Tue, 15Dec15 00:42

But thats with anything really, just to name a few things; guns, prostitution, drugs, festivities
Doggy style (noun)
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby tlaero » Tue, 15Dec15 20:57

The age of consent is younger than 18 in many places in the United States, although there places where the difference in ages plays a part (ie a 16 year old girl can consent to have sex with her 16 year old boyfriend, but not a 40 year old man).

In the end, all of these laws and morals are about child molestation. Many (most?) parents of 16 year old girls would prefer that they not have sex with their 16 year old boyfriends, but often those parents did it themselves at that age and know it can't really be stopped. What everyone really cares about, though, is stopping (and not encouraging) sexual predators, especially those that prey on underage children.

As storytellers, we have to own up to the fact that our works have some small degree of influence on the people who play them. No, we're not responsible for other people's actions, and shouldn't be blamed if someone plays our games and then cheats on his wife. But, at the same time, we do have some impact, and should plan our games appropriately. A compass that might make sense is to look at the situation in the game and ask yourself, "would this encourage a sick pervert to molest a child?" If so, think twice. A high school dating game about 15/16 year olds is less likely to do that than a game where adults get naked around a young child (even if there's no sex in the latter).

Personally, I avoid the whole issue by telling stories about consenting adults. (-;

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Jack_Smythe » Tue, 15Dec15 21:05

tlaero wrote:
As storytellers, we have to own up to the fact that our works have some small degree of influence on the people who play them. No, we're not responsible for other people's actions, and shouldn't be blamed if someone plays our games and then cheats on his wife. But, at the same time, we do have some impact, and should plan our games appropriately. A compass that might make sense is to look at the situation in the game and ask yourself, "would this encourage a sick pervert to molest a child?" If so, think twice. A high school dating game about 15/16 year olds is less likely to do that than a game where adults get naked around a young child (even if there's no sex in the latter).

Tlaero



I agree with this and it's a great point to make.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Thu, 15Dec17 03:05

We, creators, gotta protect ourselves, both legally and morally.
As I said before, all we have to do is ask ourselves "What's the message in this story? What's it about?"
If it is a story about love, trust, discovery, and consent sex and dully informed, I don't see any wrong in it.

Fear of indulging our players in misbehaviour and deviant acts is misplaced.
I could just make a story about 4 kids in kindergarden, fully clothed and innocent, going to the beach to build sand castles. What's wrong with this? Just tune up on Nickoledeon and you'll see something alike. But a predator and a sick dude will pervert it anyway. Where do predators and mental people dwell? Around innocent places like parks and schools. So there is no point in taking care in our games, may they influence people with mental disorders.
No!
That's not up to us, if we portray a good intentioned message in our art.
The legal issue is a nonsense. I'm into law. I studied it 7 years. I practiced it since 2007. I'm familiar with most of civilized laws because they come from the same historical values (save for some obscure laws like in Alabama where it is prohibited to have an ice cream cone in your back pocket or where it is considered an offense to open an umbrella on a street, for fear of spooking horses.)

No artist is going to jail for telling the story of 2 teenagers discovering sex, be it 3D or in written form. Ever. Not in Europe, Canada and Australia and probably not in the USA.
I opened this topic not to discuss the law.

I opened it to feel most people's hearts about a story involving teens over 14 or 15 yo. In a spirit of informed, voluntary and genuine sex.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby EvilChef » Sat, 15Dec19 04:21

Mortze wrote:
I opened it to feel most people's hearts about a story involving teens over 14 or 15 yo. In a spirit of informed, voluntary and genuine sex.


Personally i have no problems at all with a story involving teens having consentual sex. In fact i'd say they tend to bring back some rather lovely memories from my own life.
Im from sweden myself. I got married very early to my highschool love. She was 16 and i was 17. This is rather unusual in Sweden and if im not mistaken a new law came out 1-2 years ago that prohibits it. We had promision from our parents and had to file a petition to even be allowed. Anyhow, what im trying to get across is that from my perspective and my own life history, there are fiction out there that i have read that i actually made a point to show to my wife and they tend to spice up the old lovelife. As someone said earlier who does'nt remember and cherish their memories from those early first peeks into ones sexuality.

Do i have any form of loli fetish or any form of interest in minors? Nope, not even the slightest. What i have are memories.
Someone mentioned Goblinboy. I have played School Dreams 3. A game i did indeed find rather fun, but kinda strange at the same time.
Personally i have rather little interrest in the traditional male porn and find erotica a heck of a lot more compelling. But i do wander at times.
In barely any games am i able to find my own personal quirks or fetishes. The author getting the closest so far in AIF would be Tlaero.
Her stories are by far above the average in my own perticular interrest department.

If a game has any form of visuals be that drawn, 3d art or photos i prefer realistic women. I guess im a sucker for the girl next door.

Anyway im digressing...

I hope my input gave you some ideas anyway.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Jack_Smythe » Sat, 15Dec19 08:12

I think it's both practical and inevitable that law discussion will come up when the topic at hand is teenage sex. I think most of us agree that stories of 16+ age characters are alright but it also seems the conclusion that most of the replies seem to prefer 18+. Also, I think its reasonable to conclude the perquisite of a story and not just pointless erotica was also favored so far.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby panther50 » Tue, 15Dec22 20:14

well this topic falls more on black area than being a gray topic..all because most people consider it as taboo even though most have done it themselves from an age of 15-16 to 19-20..well i never had such experience in my life..but in high school..many of my friends had it..and yeah its an age where everyone wants to know more about sex..
i shouldn't say this but actually a teen starts watching porn at an age of 14-15 these days because of availability of internet nowadays..even when i was at high school..many of my friends used to talk about porn(i never understood them as at that time..i didn't have any access to internet..and if i had ..i was more obsessed with animes than watching porn..lol)..to tell the truth even i started playing these sex games just an year ago..after i became 18...because i like to stick with my morals...but..thats not the case here....that age is something where majority of guys starts to put their interest on sex...who knows there might be many underage people in this forum..what we need for it is a fake account with fake age..no one can deny the fact.

i would say if there is a crazy person out there who might be motivated by this game...that crazy person actually don't need this game for doing any obscene act..if that crazy guy has a f*cked up mentality...then he/she will perform that act anyhow..if not now..then later..that game won't be only guiding force for that guy..

pedophilia is a dark topic..and frankly saying..i say its a sin to make such thing..but i don't consider sex between a 16 year old and adult.. as pedophilia( but age difference should not be more than 5-6 years..and there should be mutual consent)..

i will say..if you truly want to make a game..its your will...you should make it..and for being at the safe side..you should either specify on opening page that either your character all are 18 years old as an act of formality..or you can do is not to mention the age of any character as below 18 throughout the game..that will be valid solution for it ..i think
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby tlaero » Sat, 15Dec26 19:43

Panther, I know that English isn't your first language. I appreciate you taking the time to write long and thoughtful posts in a foreign language, but I'm having a really hard time reading them.

Could you start using periods, spaces, and capital letters between your sentences? It's a shame that you're not being read for something so simple. But I've tried reading this twice, and I just can't get through it.

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby panther50 » Sun, 15Dec27 22:59

tlaero wrote:Panther, I know that English isn't your first language. I appreciate you taking the time to write long and thoughtful posts in a foreign language, but I'm having a really hard time reading them.

Could you start using periods, spaces, and capital letters between your sentences? It's a shame that you're not being read for something so simple. But I've tried reading this twice, and I just can't get through it.

Tlaero

Well, sorry about that.
Its my fault, as i am more casual while writing anything on these forums. I will try to write more formally from next time.
Can't edit the above comment right now.

Thank you for telling me. Will be commenting properly from next time [img]images/icones/icon14.gif[/img]
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby tlaero » Sun, 15Dec27 23:48

Thanks Panther!

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby iksanabot » Tue, 15Dec29 20:25

tlaero wrote:A compass that might make sense is to look at the situation in the game and ask yourself, "would this encourage a sick pervert to molest a child?" If so, think twice. Tlaero


Ok, I was done posting about this ages ago, but then I saw Tlaero had posted and so I read what she wrote, and of course it resonated with me, and now I find myself posting again.

This is exactly the point. You do not HAVE to take responsibility for the actions of people who read/play/watch your work and then make bad decisions. But I really think you shouldn't bury your hand in the sand knowingly either. The fact is, is that there are people out there that are influenced by the average attitude exhibited in these discussions. Other people posting here have said if some crazy guy is going to molest a child, he was going to do it no matter what, but that is just not true. What IS absolutely true is that some people on the edge of insanity are extremely vulnerable to outside influences. Some dude out there may be thinking his 12 year old neighbor wants him to fuck her, and if he reads a forum that says sex with 12-year-olds is demented, he pauses and re-thinks it; however, if he reads a forum that says, ya, 12-year-olds want it bad and are just waiting for someone manly enough to take it, then all of a sudden he's pulling her into his car. This ABSOLUTELY can really happen with psychotic individuals - I know, it's related to my field of work. So, no, you did not cause a 12-year-old to get raped by saying you think it's ok to show underage sex in video games, but you should realize that if you glorify underage sex in a way that emphasizes the sexual value of underage experiences or underage bodies, then you ARE contributing to the internal argument of some nutcase out there who is trying to decide whether to molest or commit some other sex crime. So, the question is: is it worth it? What is to be gained by making your characters specifically underage, in balance with what really could be lost? Write me something as insightful and inspiring as Lolita and I will say it was worth the risk that some psycho who would not have gone over the edge otherwise, goes over the edge. But don't write it in complete ignorance, refusing to admit to yourself that there can be terrible consequences. Don't be willingly ignorant. Don't stick your head in the sand.
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