Games with teens - In favor or not?

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby iksanabot » Wed, 15Oct07 15:52

Mortze wrote:I understand you Iksanobot, but I have some dificulty to understand why there is any form of issue with digital representation of minors when there is none when we see (adult) actors portraying minors in porn media. I don't know if in said scenarios the script says the character is 16 or 17, but the fact that the plot (if it has any) is about a student having sex with her teacher for better grades implies minority. And that scenario has been exploited over and over.

Is it inderectly harmful too? Well, by your argumentation I'd say yes. It says it's ok for teachers to be corrupted by sex to change fairness in grades, it says it is ok to use your body to improve in life. Those 2 facts are even more offensive to good costumes than the girl being 17 and the teacher 20s.

But I stand true when I believe that there is lots of other form of inderect harmful creations out there and nobody says a thing. Just turn on your TV on any shows channel. Take a look at any reality show. Play any video game with guns. The inderect danger is present all around.

When I created the topic it was - and still is - to get a feeling of your acceptance of any project involving minors. And it flaters me and warms my heart that despite all the opinions on the subject you trust me to design a game that doesn't offends your personal beliefs. [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]



I guess I did have one more post in me: I just want to be clear that you should definitely be flattered by my vote of confidence, because there is very little room for error on this subject. It would be very easy to offend me. If you decide to make the game, I hope it's because you have a very creative and insightful story that will enrich the lives of those who play it.

I guess because I gave you a vote of confidence, I want to cover my bets and give you some advice. First, you do not want to start collecting fans who like your work for the wrong reasons. I do not believe that you would do this, but DO NOT sexualize prepubescent bodies. I know you wouldn't do it, I just have to say it. Second, the things that you focus on when you tell your story will tell us all what it is that you think is hot about it. If you focus on how young they look or act, you'll offend me; if you focus on the exhilaration and wonder that is so strong during sexual experiences at that age - well hell, that's a great feeling, and a great memory, and I wouldn't fault you for wanting to express it. I mean, you're not a pedophile when you tell your friends about your first kiss, first touch, first BJ... But if you're peeping in windows trying to see teenagers fooling around, you have some issues...

Ok I'm done.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Super » Thu, 15Oct22 04:11

Eh, I kinda like high school hentai a lot so probably with this too. Then again, I am kinda young (22) and i do feel kind of weird thinking about teen sex... So like, in Inspiring Celina, i was essentially making the game high schooly even if I said it was in college, so I guess saying it was in college and she was 18 was close enough
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Thu, 15Oct22 22:01

I didn't know Celina was in college, missed that detail. I was under the impression that she was in high-school.

Anyway, I don't need to mention examples of games which sexual characters are in high-school. Even if they are finalists there is a fair assumption that some, if not most or all, are under 18.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Super » Fri, 15Oct23 04:26

Mortze wrote:I didn't know Celina was in college, missed that detail. I was under the impression that she was in high-school.

Anyway, I don't need to mention examples of games which sexual characters are in high-school. Even if they are finalists there is a fair assumption that some, if not most or all, are under 18.


I think I mentioned it in the very beginning narration /exposition. Or just said that Luke was going back to an early class he didn't want to take while Celina was taking it closer to when she was supposed to take it. Luke was supposed to be 21 or 22 or so, third or fourth year, and Celina was 18 and first semester of college. Guess the high school hallways might have confused some though XD though I have had some college classes in buildings converted from high schools complete with lockers so eh

Anyway, I remember Kexter I think had his game, Study Date, star 15 years old originally, and then gave the option to have it be 18 when I pointed out that might be a problem with some. So giving an option may help, though that was a text based game and thus easier to change since you don't need to worry about appearance.

And I think that girl from your game is supposed to be 18 since she's right out of high school, but she looks like she may be 16 or so. I know people age differently so it isn't the same as the old anime/hentai cliche of making the loli a 1000 year old magical being or something so that they're "legal", but just thought I'd point it out... not too sure why but it seems like it should be
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby kexter » Fri, 15Oct23 09:01

Super wrote:Anyway, I remember kexter I think had his game, Study Date, (...)
You're thinking of karrek...
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Super » Fri, 15Oct23 14:35

kexter wrote:
Super wrote:Anyway, I remember kexter I think had his game, Study Date, (...)
You're thinking of karrek...


Oh

That's embarrassing
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby wildride » Wed, 15Oct28 22:51

Mortze.. Im going to answer here purely with factual information.

Look at the LEGAL age of consent in your country and use that as your bottom age. While I personally dont have a problem with animated material (ie cartoons) portraying minors, the law on the other hand does.

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess ... al-7958896 this is in the UK. I cannot comment on how young these images were but I wouldn't take a risk.

He did only get a slap on the wrist, but as you would be creating such imagery I would assume you would get worse.

Heres a guide for age of consent via country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_c ... ent_by_age
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Wed, 15Oct28 23:43

wildride wrote:Mortze.. Im going to answer here purely with factual information.

Look at the LEGAL age of consent in your country and use that as your bottom age. While I personally dont have a problem with animated material (ie cartoons) portraying minors, the law on the other hand does.

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess ... al-7958896 this is in the UK. I cannot comment on how young these images were but I wouldn't take a risk.

He did only get a slap on the wrist, but as you would be creating such imagery I would assume you would get worse.

Heres a guide for age of consent via country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_c ... ent_by_age


problem is that law on age of consent is different then the law on child pornography. While i find the simpsons funny, i do agree portraying the young ones (even if they are yechnically over 30 already, huh huh) is child porno. Problem is with teens in age of 15-18. It still is classified as childpornography, even fictional ones (US PROTECT act of 2003, adapted by most if not all european countries) . someone can get jail for a 300 year elf getting gangbanged by orcs if she looks too young.

Then again if you have a blockbuster TVshow like Game of thrones you can get away with it.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Wed, 15Oct28 23:52

Thank you Wildride. Interesting article.

I don't agree with the judge sentence but this story is a little beyond the topic.
It refers to children look-a-like anime. Children is the word here. And I have been clear that I do not want to consider making games involving children. I stated an older set of ages, going from 14 and up.

I consulted the law in my country, and consent age is 14yo. Note that it is still forbiden to exploit these minors, up until they are 18, be it for pictures, movies, interviews, escort, prostitution, etc.
But my point in this topic is simple. I deal with pixels, not people. I do not believe I exploit anything or anybody.

So, let's assume it is wrong to render a 14yo girl having sex. What about I write a book of a 14yo having sex? IS that any diferent. One is visual, the other not, ok. But I can add many detailing in my books.
I know about books in my country that have been published with content envolving minors having sex. I know for a fact too that George R.R. Martin's books have been translated in my country, and they have their fair ammount of sex envolving minors. Rape even.

So, this makes me ask the same question again. What is the wrong done, afterall? I do not exploit any real persons. I do not work on content that comes from exploitation of real persons. There is no harm done to anyone.

And yet, alchool, tobacco, gambling, guns, all free to acquire and use, but people seem to frown uppon, somehow, on 3D erotica envolving teenagers.

Some things just amaze me...
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Thu, 15Oct29 03:22

personally own moral standing if its not real - 15 yrs and up and they do not look really really young, i got no problem. Am i affraid that i will get a jail sentence or a fine? Nope. Why tho ask

Fun and bizar story in 2013 a lawyer named Gerard Spong had release some shocking info about a 1984 Dutch film classic called "schatjes" (translated darlings - but its sarcastic) story goes about a family with 4 really troublesome children including a teen daughter. In the movie there is a revealing sexscene with her and her tennis coach udner the shower. Btw i never liked dutch movies as a whole there are some but not many. This movie been on Dutch tv, maybe even belgium almost each year. The movie itself been viseted in cinema by a million visitors.

Now the shockign part, at the time of the filming the acrtess was 14 years old. So technically a lot of people in the Netherlands are risking a 78000 euro fine and 4 years in prison for owning the movie. The filmmakers do not risk anything anymore cause well its to old to bring back up. And The movie itself is still being sold on DVD (although i do not know if the scene has been deleted on those DVD's)

So i ain't affraid of having some non-real pics from stories about nudity in with teens. And to think aboutit only ones i so far have on my pc that could apply to that are the girls from Goblinboy's Schooldreams.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Thu, 15Oct29 22:30

From some little legal research I made - and I do have some knowledge in that department - the penal code in my country and in France only refers to media containing minors involving in sexual activity IF there was any exploitation of any minor (a real person).
So owning videos and pictures of child pornography is a crime. A severe one. Producing said media is worse of course.

But that is all. There isn't anything regarding producing art that do not involve exploitation of anybody, like paiting a naked minor, writing a book about minors, etc...

I've never heard about any prosecution, of writers, painters, artists, that deal with such themes. Not in Europe anyway.
The example mentioned some posts earlier, about a case in the UK is peculiar, new, and let's agree that UK law is based on the precedence and not so much on actual written law. So if a judge do deem criminal comdemnable to have some anime stuff with minors drawn he may decide so, and comdemn. On the other side, I don't know how much cases where dropped down in the UK courts because the judge didn't see any criminal activity in owning hentai, books, or any type of art not envolving real persons.

I know that in my country, and in France, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Greece, Austria, and plenty other countries in Europe (save for the UK) any prossecution and comdemnation must have a legal support. An actual law article stating that producing any type of art or media that portrays any sexual activity involving minors is a criminal ofense.
And I have my doubts that in these countries there is such law.

I have my doubts because such law wouldn't make any sense.

There is nothing against me writting a book where I, the protagonist, am a serial killer and I abduct, torture, mistreat, and kill my victims. It is piece of fiction.
But such acts are clearly forbidden to do in real life. Yet, I can write my book and publish it and wish for success. MAybe I'll sell thousands of books.
Therefore, I see nothing wrong in producing a fiction where the protagonist is an adult having is way with minors.
We may discuss these creations in matters of good taste, mental sanity, whatever, but legally? No.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby LRM » Thu, 15Oct29 23:02

I need preface with I don't have in any way, shape, or form, any legal expertise.
I was born and grew up in in middle America (Ohio).
In my 20s and 30s I visited and lived on the economy in SE Asia (1 year) and Germany (three years). My view and acceptance of things is likely broader than most Americans.
I seem to recall some chatter about using aging software in reverse to make porn stars appear well below the age of consent. While many saw this as a problem the courts (if memory serves) could not prosecute. It threw a shadow over trying many cases once it became public.
I personally feel it foolish to highlight one's age in any game/adventure/visual novel! Especially when the exact story line can be used at a college as at a high school, so why go there?
I at age 5 (1950s) was feeling my female play mate's breasts and pussies (although at the time I knew not why). I must have been a slow learner too, I spent the lion's share of more than one summer grounded to my yard when I got caught doing it. Do I want to see this behavior portrayed in a game? HELL NO!
Did I want to beat the piss out of the teen that molested my daughter? You bet your ass! My lady refused to point his little ass out because she knew I'd be the one in jail if she did.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mimailia » Fri, 15Oct30 12:09

LRM wrote:I personally feel it foolish to highlight one's age in any game/adventure/visual novel! Especially when the exact story line can be used at a college as at a high school, so why go there?


Well said LRM, I've wondered this point every time I see this discussion. Your example leaves age to the players mind. I enjoy games that explore high school innocence (having missed most of my opportunities due to a strict upbringing). But a 37 year old "innocent virgin" - not so much!

LRM wrote:I at age 5 (1950s) was feeling my female play mate's breasts and pussies ...


Who didn't play "Doctor" or "I'll show you mine" as a kid.

M

Edit Great thread, by the way!
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Jack_Smythe » Mon, 15Dec14 20:54

Glad I stumbled across this topic!

Recently, I had an internal debate while I was frame working my first game. I wanted it to be a throw back to the school games but I personally don't feel comfortable with portraying sex with characters under the age of 18 and then I asked myself, "What about peeping/voyeurism?" and again I had to find an internal boundary to which I would not go beyond. Personally, I like games with adults but if I was going to make a game, I was debating if I should add younger content for the audience, even if I was uncomfortable with it. And I came to a solution that I felt was ok with me and would somewhat satisfy the percentage of players that like that sort of thing by having a couple of peeping/voyeurism things, or written hints that the younger character was involved in sex (but not with the main character). However, I would do it without showing images. In the case of my concept, the 16 year old sister of the main character's love interest is jealous of her older sister's relationship and is trying to get the boyfriend's attention to focus on her. However, this is a subplot line that takes place in the background of the main story arc and serves more as puzzle/challenges for the PC to overcome than to show or focus on underage sexual situations.

Like others have said, it is a game and therefore is fantasy. There is no law, in the US anyway, that I believe it is illegal to portray minors having sex in a fantasy setting. The laws pertain to real people.

Of course, we all know, biologically humans are able to reproduce beginning around 11-13 years of age, depending on puberty, which is way lower than the age of consent for most countries. Along with pubescence, are all the sexual feelings we play these games for: attraction, seduction, new experiences, relationships, challenge, eroticism, etc. We all know that kids were having sex in high school, sometimes as early as middle school, but it is hard to determine that if we should portray that real life aspect in our games or not. And if not, why? For my personal answer, it is because I'm much older now and I find older women attractive and I'd have a moral issue even pretending in a game to have sex/seduce a 14-16 year old. When I was 13 I found 13 year olds attractive. When I was 18 I found 18 year olds attractive, etc. When I was 30, I found 18-40 year olds attractive. [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]

I was an anthropology major in college (for most of it before switching majors) and around the world different cultures have different ages where humans are considered adults. In most European and Western Civ nations, the age of consent I believe is 18. In the US, even if a 16 year old consents to have sex with what is considered an adult (18+), parents can still decide to bring statutory rape charges against that adult because the 16 year old is still considered a minor and under her parents protection. In other cultures around the world, it isn't such a big thing and many cultures have taken steps to incorporate the natural biological pubescence of the human growth cycle in a much more natural and accepting way. For example, one tribe in Africa has two separate encampments, one for children and adults while the other is for those tribal members between the age of 13 and 18 where they live together and are encourage to seek out a mate. The philosophy behind this is the tribe believe that eventually the young adults in the 13/18 encampment will naturally find the person they will feel most comfortable with and will come out of it with someone they will have a successful marriage with. Way different than Western thinking? Yes. Is it wrong? I don't think so. It makes sense from a point of view.

I think in the subject of Erotica, people have vastly different tastes/turn ons. I think if you are going to include teens in your game, then do what is comfortable for you without conceding to the "need to satisfy" all players. I really enjoy Tlaero's games because they have a more seductive/relationship aspect to their plots with hot, erotic moments sprinkled in. In much the same way, I really enjoyed Ariane B because it was you trying to make a great date and you could utterly fail or fantastically succeed, depending on your choices. Emily Sister Attraction pushed some envelopes for me in the taboo nature of the game and the photographic age of the models (which are probably 18 but look way younger, like porn star Little Caprice), but I did find it enjoyable as a game none the less, though not as erotic for me as say Getting to Know Christine by Tlaero or Meteor by GoblinBoy.

One way though that it kind of weirdly acceptable to me though is through Anime style characters, like BBBen's games. For some reason, years of watching Anime have somehow brainwashed me into accepting those style of characters as ok. Why!? Crazy stuff.

Thanks for bringing this topic up, Mortze! I think it's a great discussion to have!
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Mon, 15Dec14 21:30

Jack_Smythe wrote:
Like others have said, it is a game and therefore is fantasy. There is no law, in the US anyway, that I believe it is illegal to portray minors having sex in a fantasy setting. The laws pertain to real people.



Ehh for the US i believe there is, for Europe its debatable. Look at the Protect Act of 2003 as long as its not obscene
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