Games with teens - In favor or not?

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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Squeeky » Mon, 15Sep28 12:30

Fine.
I think that I understood the stance that you were making, but I felt that the age of consent/media portrayal might have been missed.

From my own stance, on the question that you are asking, I am very comfortable with middle-age teens being portrayed in any format which is not seen to compromise any person nor be seen to promote a behavioural pattern.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby jacke » Mon, 15Sep28 17:22

Beside the law question, i think Tlaero was right on her point to have absolutely a 15 year old character. Since we are in a sex game universe , is the story around the discover of the boy's/girl's sexuallity ? If not, personally i don't see the interest because the plot may be transpose with 18+.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Mon, 15Sep28 19:25

jacke wrote:Beside the law question, i think Tlaero was right on her point to have absolutely a 15 year old character. Since we are in a sex game universe , is the story around the discover of the boy's/girl's sexuallity ? If not, personally i don't see the interest because the plot may be transpose with 18+.

Well, in modern times, some people that age are past beyond discovery. There are plenty of 16yo teens outhere that are way beyond that point, and are as sexually active as most of we (old chaps) were at 20's.
So, what if the game was with that in mind?
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby jacke » Mon, 15Sep28 20:00

Mortze wrote:Well, in modern times, some people that age are past beyond discovery. There are plenty of 16yo teens outhere that are way beyond that point, and are as sexually active as most of we (old chaps) were at 20's.
So, what if the game was with that in mind?


Correct for the sexual activity, i'm getting old...So we return on the taboo thing, excitement provided by 15/16+ teen, but i don't want to argue on that. However the complexity of feelings and situation are in my mind less interesting in this age because , they have less return on life experience than the older character.(captain obvious speaking) And the problem they can encounter don't speak at me, But that for my opinion, i had some difficulty for imagining an erotic and interesting situation with teen, it's seems turning for me about a few situation : life school or hollidays .
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Mon, 15Sep28 21:23

jacke wrote:But that for my opinion, i had some difficulty for imagining an erotic and interesting situation with teen

Seems like a challenge to me. [img]images/icones/icon13.gif[/img]
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Mon, 15Sep28 21:48

Mortze wrote:
jacke wrote:But that for my opinion, i had some difficulty for imagining an erotic and interesting situation with teen

Seems like a challenge to me. [img]images/icones/icon13.gif[/img]


The mystery of the unknown, the new experience. first love If thats captured i think its fine.Aslong as i do not have to hear/read for every girl thats in the game:
"Ooh! Ow! Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! You're gonna call me, right?"
(challenge find the one i quoted without looking on google/any other searchengine



and on the staging areas for teens, yeh its basicly any sort of slice of life, with school and sepcific types of holidays (summer/soccer/(girl)scout
[for us dutch folks atleast where i live the 15/16 age still applies towards the scouts, where i live there is a fridayevening group with mostly girls and greatlooking leaders wich are probaly the reason why there are so many in that group]
/etc camps) in mind. Anything else can be done by adults.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby iksanabot » Tue, 15Oct06 17:11

I guess I will chime in on this. I just had a similar discussion with Leo about non-consensual sex in games. It is very applicable, so I will relate the basic issue. I don't like it when a character in a game forces sex on a woman, and gets rewarded for it. I don't mind it so much if a player forces sex on a woman and gets punished for it (i.e. bad ending). The difference is, that I don't like anything that feels like it is (prepare for full capitals here) PROMOTING non-consensual sex. I don't want to encourage some borderline psycho out there to associate [forcing himself on someone] with [a happy ending]. Of courses, I also recognize that games are a place to explore fetishes, and from my time reading stories on Literotica, I know that many female authors have non-consensual sex fantasies (usually a hot guy they want to have sex with but can't because of commitment or protocol, or whatever, and then he takes the decision from them - definitely NOT common for woman to fantasize about being raped by a sleazy psychopath in a dark alley). So Leo has games where guys jerk-off onto girls without their consent, or trick them into sleeping with them, and shit like that, and I just don't write it, or if I do, they get punished for it. But I accept the association with his other games.

So anyway, I think it's worth thinking about whether your art is promoting a behavior that would hurt someone. I think 16 is a very vulnerable age, and promoting the seduction of a 16 year old could actually encourage someone out there to try it. Similarly, showing really hot sex between two consenting 16 year olds could invoke a level of lust in some borderline crazy person out there to go out and try to live it any way they can. I also recognize that many of us have incredibly sexy memories of sexual experiences at that age, or we may have first developed our own super-sexy fantasies about our peers at that age, and those may be powerful emotions that can drive great art. I think an artist has a responsibility to think about the promotion issue, but I don't think that an artist is responsible for the way people may react to their art. I didn't blame the movie The Matrix, or the rock star Marilyn Manson for the Columbine tragedy. I truly think that the best art comes from an uncontrollable drive to express oneself. I think Eminem has produced amazing art, but I also think he's a total bastard and I think he promoted violence against women. But again, I don't blame any case of spousal abuse on him.

So I guess that the summary of my thoughts is just to consider that you may be promoting/encouraging people to seek that experience in real life. Weigh the drive to create against a sense of responsibility and see what you want to do. I do believe it's possible to create something in this vein that is a great work of art, but it has to be pretty damn great to be worth it, in my opinion.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Tue, 15Oct06 17:41

Excelent good points Iksanobot!

I see we have the same concerns. But I'd like to react to your opinion.

If any art creator would have to take into serious consideration any behaviour that borderline or unbalanced audience might indulge into we would have some rather boring:
- movies;
- tv shows;
- literature;
- poetry;
- music;
- painting;
- dance;
- theater;
- I think you get my point

As a player I avoid games that don't match my moral standards, point.
As a creator I have to do the same. But I understand that my moral boundaries might be beyond other people's, and here I have to question another factor that I think is the important one: what is the message I want to convey in my story.

And if my message is about absolute conscient and willing sex, with no future psychological consequences, and where or just pure lust, is the motivator, then I think there isn't any bad message vehiculated because if that's the motivation I see in people around me for having sex than I am confortable with it.

When you tell the example of the 16 being seduced and that it is a fragile age I do not disagree. Here, if the character presents herself fragile and the game is about seducting her, then I do not agree with its premise.
But if you show a 16yo girl, that is confident, has had sex before, knows what she wants, and seduces, or builds a relationship with an adult, or another 16yo colleague I do not think this is the same thing.

What I think is, if there is any condemnable behaviour this kind of games promote is voyeurism, of the player being a voyeur watching figures having sex, then we wouldn't have any games or porn for that matter would we?
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Tue, 15Oct06 17:47

iksanabot wrote:So anyway, I think it's worth thinking about whether your art is promoting a behavior that would hurt someone. I think 16 is a very vulnerable age, and promoting the seduction of a 16 year old could actually encourage someone out there to try it. Similarly, showing really hot sex between two consenting 16 year olds could invoke a level of lust in some borderline crazy person out there to go out and try to live it any way they can.


bolded it, that goes for all kinds of arts. A crazy person will always act on it. But the artist/ developer/creator will take the fall. Seen it happy in videogames aswell, GTA, COD, WoW and many more games taking the blame for example shootings at highschoold
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Tue, 15Oct06 18:10

Skelaturi wrote:A crazy person will always act on it. But the artist/ developer/creator will take the fall. Seen it happy in videogames aswell, GTA, COD, WoW and many more games taking the blame for example shootings at highschoold


Here I have to take a stand. I don't care if some people don't have the maturity to make the rational processing of separating a media with violence (or something morally discutable) and a certain event. Saying violence result of video games is just pure non-sense. Any balanced person watched Rambo at my age when I was an influencable teen and didn't go berserk shooting cops all around.
I played GTA and I drive relatively slow and don't run over people.

If I was afraid that any one of my games might influence any mentally unstable person to do any type of act Iouldn't do anything at all. Depending on the form of such mental instability, just having a hot book store lady in my game, that gets naked forward in the game, might be the trigger for any lunatic to go and seduce (or believe is seducing) the book store lady next door.

No. My drive, as a creator, would not be defined by irrational judgements but only by personal moral confort. Is my game portraying a good message? Do the character in my game behaves like I would or like I would like my son to behave one day? Is the girl in the game potraying in such a way that I would, as a father, be ashamed of her or is she developing a strong and confident atitude, enhancing her proudness and love for herself?
Those, I believe, are the real questions to pose as a creator. Not if the girl is 16 or 18.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby iksanabot » Tue, 15Oct06 19:27

iksanabot wrote: I think an artist has a responsibility to think about the promotion issue, but I don't think that an artist is responsible for the way people may react to their art.


Hmm, I'm not sure if I was misunderstood (is "bolded it" internet slang for "bullshit"? I'm asking seriously).

I am definitely not saying that an artist is responsible if someone reads their book, watches their movie, listens to their song or plays their game or whatever, and gets all fired up, then goes out and hurts somebody. But I do think that behaving morally (and it seems that this is one of the issues raised here) means actually considering the consequence of anything you do. If you make the game and someone does something nasty after playing it, specifically because of the desires the game provoked in them at that moment, it's still not your fault. But if you refuse to consider that your game could have a consequence like that, then I think your'e behaving irresponsibly. It doesn't mean don't make it, it means don't make it lightly. A good person might think about the consequences, and still decide to make it because the idea is so good, the emotion is so strong that drives them, and the contribution to culture is worth the potential one-in-a-million chance that someone gets hurt directly as a result of the game.

I'm glad Eminem wrote The Real Slim Shady, even if it means some people ate onion rings with spit on them that wouldn't have if fewer kids working at Burger King had ever heard that song. I'm glad Nabokov wrote Lolita (even younger than 16), even if it added to the number of horny old men harassing the young women in their environments after reading it. I'm not saying that I think some 16 year old girl is going to get coerced into sex and then kill herself a year later because some asshole played your game. I'm just saying that the act of full and honest consideration of the potential consequences and is the act of a good, responsible person. Recognize that there is possible harm in promoting or glorifying underage sex (even between two consenting minors), and decide if that risk is worth it.

Please realize that I'm not getting all high and mighty here - I mean, c'mon, my characters do horrible things. I recognize that it is entirely possible that some guy out there played Living with Temptation and then cheated on his wife. It's not very likely that my game turned a committed husband into a cheat, but it's possible. I think the risk that my game was going to be the single contributor to a broken marriage (even just one) was very, very small, and the value of the game and the inspiration and drive I had to write it were worth it. So it's out there now. And maybe some nannies are getting leered at because their boss can't help looking at them through the lens of a nymphomaniac seductress like Lisa, but probably not (just mine - kidding, I don't have a nanny).

If you decide to make it, given what I know of you from your presence here, I will trust it's tasteful and well-intentioned, I will probably play it, and I bet I'll like it. And I am 100% sure that I won't bother any young girls afterward.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Tue, 15Oct06 19:38

Fair and good points again.

What I amtrying to say is that I think it is more about the message, the good taste, the morality of the story rather than about age legality, when we are talking about polygons.

I think it is way more disturbing, moraly speaking, a story about violence and abuse, with only adults involved, that one that is solely about love/sex discovery between 2 young people, may them be all minors or not.

It's all about perspective in my most humble opinion.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Skelaturi » Tue, 15Oct06 20:28

iksanabot wrote:
iksanabot wrote: I think an artist has a responsibility to think about the promotion issue, but I don't think that an artist is responsible for the way people may react to their art.


Hmm, I'm not sure if I was misunderstood (is "bolded it" internet slang for "bullshit"? I'm asking seriously).


nope not slang or bullshit, its a point. I agree on the fact that only someone thats not (mentally) stable can make a bad choise on playing or watching anything. But those who tend to blame videogames, art, music, movies, books etc etc. cause someone did something bad, i disagree with those to. The creator cannot be held accounted for actions of someone else, unless the creator wanted to influence others in taking that action.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby iksanabot » Tue, 15Oct06 21:18

Mortze wrote:I think it is more about the message, the good taste, the morality of the story rather than about age legality, when we are talking about polygons.


Well, I guess I'm feeling kind of post-y right now, but this will probably be my last comment.
I agree that the distinction between polygons and people is an important one, but respectfully, I have to suggest that it doesn't apply very well here.

Clearly, it's much worse to use 16-year old models to make a video of graphic sex than it is to draw a cartoon depicting graphic sex between 16 year olds. But what makes the former so much worse is that it involves direct harm: the exploitation of the actors and all that. However, there is not really much difference between the former and the latter in terms of the potential indirect harm from promoting/glorifying underage sex. The indirect harm is harm on a much smaller scale, but it's present in both examples.

Moreover, we are really comparing making a game about adults and making a game about minors, and the potential indirect harm is greater when you make it about minors than it is when it's about adults, whether the characters are polygons or not. So yeah, making it about polygons does not eliminate the issue.

But I really don't mean to make it a big deal. I trust your judgement, and believe you could make a very inoffensive and sexy game about love and/or lust between minors.
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Re: Games with teens - In favor or not?

Postby Mortze » Tue, 15Oct06 21:46

I understand you Iksanobot, but I have some dificulty to understand why there is any form of issue with digital representation of minors when there is none when we see (adult) actors portraying minors in porn media. I don't know if in said scenarios the script says the character is 16 or 17, but the fact that the plot (if it has any) is about a student having sex with her teacher for better grades implies minority. And that scenario has been exploited over and over.

Is it inderectly harmful too? Well, by your argumentation I'd say yes. It says it's ok for teachers to be corrupted by sex to change fairness in grades, it says it is ok to use your body to improve in life. Those 2 facts are even more offensive to good costumes than the girl being 17 and the teacher 20s.

But I stand true when I believe that there is lots of other form of inderect harmful creations out there and nobody says a thing. Just turn on your TV on any shows channel. Take a look at any reality show. Play any video game with guns. The inderect danger is present all around.

When I created the topic it was - and still is - to get a feeling of your acceptance of any project involving minors. And it flaters me and warms my heart that despite all the opinions on the subject you trust me to design a game that doesn't offends your personal beliefs. [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]
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