Incest

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Re: Incest

Postby rabbie » Wed, 15Aug12 22:09

LRM wrote:Shark’s complaint IMO, was JB Games advertising a pay site here. And to be completely honest there was at the time of JB’s post no incest included. I think the title certainly hinted there might be, but that violates no current or past Lagoon guideline.
Lou


That is the line here on sites like ***? To me, when you give the game away for free and just add this option it's not really a paysite, it's just a way to allow donations to a creator you enjoy.

Is it because it was his first post that linked to it? Would it be different if a long standing creator started giving out a link to a ***? Or is there just a hardline ban on it?

I am glad you opened up a discussion like this, it's nice to clear a few things up. (Which this thread already has to me.)
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Re: Incest

Postby Rexxx » Wed, 15Aug12 22:32

rabbie wrote:
LRM wrote:Shark’s complaint IMO, was JB Games advertising a pay site here. And to be completely honest there was at the time of JB’s post no incest included. I think the title certainly hinted there might be, but that violates no current or past Lagoon guideline.
Lou


That is the line here on sites like ***? To me, when you give the game away for free and just add this option it's not really a paysite, it's just a way to allow donations to a creator you enjoy.

Is it because it was his first post that linked to it? Would it be different if a long standing creator started giving out a link to a ***? Or is there just a hardline ban on it?

I am glad you opened up a discussion like this, it's nice to clear a few things up. (Which this thread already has to me.)

Maybe offtopic ( I'm not sure seen that all started there), but Shark stated that the direct promotion (there are rules against in the forum) was the thing bothered more him not incest (controversial argument, but I don't think explicitly forbidden here), the forum is his and he can rightly ask to not putting direct link to donation or payment sites for publicity (the thing probably would have been differents if the link would have been to a neutral page like a blog), and in this case I'm not sure the author wants to release the game free to all (like the majority of who the people who posts here), but only for who has donated, other people needs to buy the complete game (and he has all the rights to do that if he wants).
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Re: Incest

Postby shark » Wed, 15Aug12 23:26

When a lagooner who has participated in the life of this forum for a long time, who has shared his creations and offered to the members much of his work, decides one day to ask for a financial help, I'm not shocked.
But when a guy creates an account just to put a link to his website and ask for money, I don't agree.
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Re: Incest

Postby Greebo » Thu, 15Aug13 00:19

Actually, from what I've been able to piece together, JB Games wasn't even offering a paysite! He was asking for *** subscriptions at ludicrous levels to develop a game of unknowable quality to be available some indeterminate time in the future! Some things might be worth investing in but that sounded like a real "pig in a poke"

Edit: Weird censoring you've got there shark, it substitutes *** for the name of a genuine "Kickstarter" type setup!
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Re: Incest

Postby saolo996 » Thu, 15Aug13 10:19

Shark pointed out why he took his decision and it had nothing to do with the incest matter.

Having said that I really appreciated the debate, both for arguments and respect everyone showed towards other users' point of view.
I think Squeeky prefectly resumed with his points what lays under what everyone finds acceptable/unacceptable in it, but exactly due to this I think it will be almost impossible to resolve them as he was hoping to do!

My opinion is almost the same as Mortze one, on this subject, so there's no need to repeat it. (yes, I'm lazy and what's more you sure read it...)

Just remember that what is (un)acceptable/(un)tolerate now could have been not so long ago, as for Romeo and Juliet's age (they were expected to reach the age of 45 at that time...), or could no more in few years. It all depends by society we live in!

Thank everybody for their brilliant and deep thoughts.

And thanks a lot to the user (I don't remember who) that reminded us we all come from a man who decided to have sex with his gender switched clone!
(And thinking about them 2... We all probably are result of incest)
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Re: Incest

Postby Squeeky » Fri, 15Aug14 07:16

I expected to make this post sometime earlier but a certain Lagooner who I might identify with long scarlet flowing locks thwarted that.

Our various countries obviously take “common law” into account when developing legislation.
“Common law” was necessary for wholesome coexistence of a tribe/community. Various tenets would have developed over different temporal periods and passed on in “songlines”, folklore, and eventually by scholars.

“Incest” has obviously been founded upon very early tribal/community understandings where the then unknown concept of “recessive genes” became apparent.

Ultimately our international communities have inherited principles of “common law” akin to the Christian set of “The Ten Commandments”.

Governments, not always removed from religious influences, legislate upon practicalities, the here and now. This brings me back to where I was ‘upset’ by Skelaturi’s:link. It is very clear, from my reading, there is little commonalty of the definition of “incest” other than it is sexual intercourse between a parent and a child of the opposite sex. Oh! I should add, that seems to be consistent whilst the junior is not of age to be a consenting adult.

Oh! I note above that LRM expressed his opinion of incest within “Teasing Holidays”. With respect, I understood that “incest” was about intercourse, but I also thought, erroneously, that it related to other sexual activity not involving intercourse (this occurs between Emilee and her brother). Consistent with LRM’s supposed stance is that the legislature where he lives (not necessarily what his early family values embedded) is against intercourse with cousins (Alyssa and Andy). Now…. France – Belgium and Luxembourg! …. The Wiki article at this point lacks the clarification that I’d like, but with Shark’s comment (above) I assume that those legislatures embody the idea which I quote from above: ” Oh! I should add, that seems to be consistent whilst the junior is not of age to be a consenting adult.”

Now I came full circle to those “long scarlet flowing locks”. Skelaturi suggested that developers, and others, propose certain keywords regarding content, much as one would build into a site so that webcrawlers make the site more visible to search engines.
… but someone stated here somewhere before, to lazy to read it all again who said it. But i think there should be a rule that both creators and users when posting a new topic about someting in the first post all subjects should be listed. Incest, orc on elf, bdsm, futa. So noone should be in for a (un)pleasant suprise. And the mods only have to read the first post …
For authors that would work fine, but for someone who is offering a “treasure”, the full scope may be unknown to the poster; maybe the poster must offer as much content knowledge that is known. While I have some “embryonic” thoughts, are there others who might give some insight? Please keep them within the framework of this thread since even this thought is somewhat going “off-topic”.

Now, how is the Lagoon is to deal with “incest” since we now have a wider exposure to deeper understandings of governance? My simplistic view is that we propose, if content is “incest” then either “the junior is a consenting adult” is acceptable or else “no parental-child relationships are acceptable”.

Shark may or may not accept any advices but, …… let me further add, I expect that any comment upon my remarks should be constructive.
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Re: Incest

Postby LRM » Fri, 15Aug14 07:37

Lou is anti incest or pedophilia in any way, shape, form, or fashion!
LRM is Shark's agent and echos Shark's stance... So should you when acting as his agent! I see no problem here!
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Re: Incest

Postby paquito » Fri, 15Aug14 07:42

And what about a numerious scale from 1 to 5 for the "projects" and the "sexy games" section? 1 for very usual sex scenes in the games and 5 for really weird things. Bigger is the number, more strange and non-mainstream is the game. Example: "(3) Teasing Holidays" because of the small insest part of this game.

Currently, I translate a game. In this game the main character is a 16-year old guy, so he's obviously minor but this age is the beginning of the sexuality. So for this game, it could be: "(2 or 3) My math teacher".

This solution avoids spoilers and allow people to choose what they want to see. The team just needs to define the scale and change the name of the thread.
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Re: Incest

Postby LRM » Fri, 15Aug14 07:48

The team enforces Shark's guidance. If a member of the team cannot/will not; they need to leave the team. It all depends on Shark's guidance/written guidelines!
We're making a very simple concept complicated. It needn't be.
I don't mean the staff should blindly follow him. The time to disagree/discuss is while guidelines are being established; before anything is published! Once published, there is no need for open discussion. LRM thinks the incest discussion was decided with the release of "Teasing Holidays".
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Re: Incest

Postby shark » Fri, 15Aug14 10:11

Hey! Why speaking about "Teasing Holidays" to talk about incest? The only action that can be discussed is a kiss between Andy and his sister.
Concerning relations between Alyssa and her cousin Andy, I precise that in France, marriage is allowed between two cousins. This site is registered in France, so there is no legal problem.
On the other hand, I do not intend to make this forum a place where there will be more rules than posts. I consider that it's to me and the moderators to decide what is permissible here, according to our sensitivity and after discussions together.
The moderators may have different sensitivities and opinions (I remind them that there are private places to discuss this).
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Re: Incest

Postby Skelaturi » Fri, 15Aug14 12:52

Squeeky wrote:I expected to make this post sometime earlier but a certain Lagooner who I might identify with long scarlet flowing locks thwarted that.


I feel bad now, do not know if i should be but i do.

shark wrote: This site is registered in France, so there is no legal problem.


I think thats the answer I atleast needed to find closuere. Taking French law as a starting point.

shark wrote: I consider that it's to me and the moderators to decide what is permissible here.


and this as the finish line.



Thanks again to Lou, a certain waterrat and Shark. For keeping this discussion open to the public. Well appreciated.

ps. Next point of discussion the age of consent? =P (just joking here)
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Re: Incest

Postby tlaero » Sat, 15Aug15 17:16

I'm wondering about the definition that Incest is between a parent and a child. Is there another definition that it can be between a brother and a sister? Or is that called something other than "incest"?

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Re: Incest

Postby Skelaturi » Sat, 15Aug15 17:45

tlaero wrote:I'm wondering about the definition that Incest is between a parent and a child. Is there another definition that it can be between a brother and a sister? Or is that called something other than "incest"?

Tlaero


from the wiki Incest is sexual activity between family members or close relatives. This typically includes sexual activity between people in a consanguineous relationship (blood relations), and sometimes those related by affinity, such as individuals of the same household, step relatives, those related by adoption or marriage, or members of the same clan or lineage.

so short yes still incest, stepsister and brother still incest in some cultures
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Re: Incest

Postby LRM » Sat, 15Aug15 17:53

Morning M'lady;
I'm not an authority on the subject but I think any 2 people who share a similar parentage (lineage) and then engage in sexual relations are varying degrees of incest.
The major disagreement occurs when you try to establish a point where that violates a law or rule.
It's often depicted because just pushing said point in itself is titillating. Throw in a few sexual situations and you have a hit on your hands.
If one believes what's been written in the Bible we all share common parentage. Adam and Eve started it all, and Noah and company once again condensed the parentage pool a while later.
The simple answer to your question IMO is yes, Brother and Sister sharing a sexual experience is incest. I'll let you determine where any shared experience crosses your line of decency (see the question I posed on page 1, post 7 of this thread).
Lou
I wish I'd created a poll when I posed that question. Again IMO, I think anyone that shared a house with brothers and sisters has a much broader definition of where the point of decency occurs. Adults of a single child family have fewer chances to be surprised by a sibling or parent. Walking in on a nude older brother or sister, or having a younger sibling catch you pleasuring yourself offers a learning experience for both, not that anyone here has EVER pleasured her/himself!
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Re: Incest

Postby tlaero » Sat, 15Aug15 22:35

It's unfortunate that parent-child is named the same thing as sibling-sibling. Even if biology and recessive genes didn't play a role, parent-child is horrific and bad. Anything involving sex with children, related or not, is the worst of the worst, no question. But, after that, things get a little muddy.

Consensual sex between adult age siblings has thousands of years of biology weighing against it, I get that, but it seems less bad to me than non-consensual sex between adults (rape). I guess that's society vs biology speaking though. I wonder if people had to rate things from "bad" to "more bad," where rape vs consensual adult sibling incest would compare. And I wonder if it would vary from culture to culture and across genders.

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