Incest

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Incest

Postby LRM » Mon, 15Aug10 09:28

I'll tell you straight up I don't like it, nor am I enamored with either version of D&S (Desire&Submission).
I'll also tell you, at the time of this post, there is no Lagoon rule that bars it!
A very long time ago (in the original Lagoon) Shark made a post stating he didn't like it.
Squeeky and I made an attempt (18 Jun 2014 through 24 Jun 2014) to add a rule covering incest, Shark didn't support it and we could never arrive at a concrete definition. I refuse to support something arbitrary!!! I thought and still do think, we're at an impasse. Until there is something concrete that can be measured, enforced, and is added to the Lagoon rules; I feel incest is fair game here. If and when anyone crosses a line Shark doesn't like, I'm 99.9% certain HE'LL let us know!!!
IMO (InMyOpinion) Shark's original stance has softened. I point to "Teasing Holidays" that IMO contains incest.

This is MY thread!!!
You may wonder as far afield as you desire!
Care to discuss Incest? This is the place!!!
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Edited to answer a question below 10 Aug 2015.
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Re: Incest

Postby Mortze » Mon, 15Aug10 12:39

Excelent initiative Lou.

This is indeed a complicate subject.
As I am super lazy I'll copy/paste what I said on the matter on another thread (hope it is not a problem).

There is a HUGE difference between a father who molestes his 8-year daughter and a 18-year brother and 16-year sister who are going the Lannister way.
The main focus here is informed consent. A child isn't aware of what an adult might do to him, or at least not fully conscient of the implications and wrongs. That's why child molestation make us all sick (I trully hope).
But two young people, fully aware of their desires, and ok with it both of them, isn't so repugnant. Some might find it quite arousing.
While I do frown uppon vertical incest (father/daughter,grandpa/grand-daughter,uncle/niece), horizontal incest isn't as shocking, or not at all, IF both parties are consensual, and informed of what they are doing (8 year old aren't either totally consensual or informed because they don't have the mental capacity to fully understand the act, while 14 and above is another matter).

I do think that, setting this clear, incest might be less shocking than rape (even if you have to make the girl drunk to have "consensual" sex), orcs nailing elves, or girls with dongs, and I've seen a fair share of those one in lots of games.

Considering all this, I do prefer to follow an incest story involving brother/sister, cousins, that has love, emotions, understanding, mutual experimentation, trust, general positive feelings in the story than one where 2 adults just chat about non-sense in a bar and go have sex.


There are 2 main essences that make people be unease with incest and that's the biological and the domination/exploitation issues.
The first only applies when the sex becomes reproduction. Reproduction through incest isn't biologicaly viable as we all know. That's nature saying us that it doesn't agree with it.
The second one is about domination/exploitation. When we hear about incest, in most cases, on the news, books, etc, it is mostly about situations involving a much older dominant figure and a victim that isn't either unaware or willing. If he complies to the act it's because the dominant figure acts on some form of authority and the victim thinks that is must be the right thing to do.
This last way is despictable. There is no place for a nice, innocent, sexual story, when we use this. Child abuse is one of the most horrifying things there is. Even if a story tells about a child that is happy having sex with an older person it is not alright since it promotes normality to the reader. The argument that the viewer can make the difference between reality and fiction is not relevant here. Childhood is innocence, purity, play and joy. There is no place for sex in this phase of life.

But adolescence, and I refer to a more late adolescence, is a different matter. No precise numbers here but let's say 14 and up, is a phase of sexual discovery. Just look around. Children mainly play with toys, they discover the world for its colours and purpose. Adolescents focus mainly on social interaction, acceptation and of course sex is a great part of that. So here, sex becomes a normal thing. At this ages teens discover masturbation, sexual desire, even phantasies, and a good share even practices normal sex.
When the sexual discoveries are shared by the two people involved and there is no dominant part I do think there is no harm in incest.

Like I said, vertical incest involves, in general, somewhat a dominant figure in the older person. But horizontal incest, generally, involves people with the same needs, questions, to experiment and discover, to feel desire and desired, even loved. That's why incest between brothers/sisters/cousins does not disgusts me.

Of course, incest does not need to involve minors. A 60 year old having a thing with his 40 year daughter is still incest. I stand consistent in my evaluation in older people cases. Vertical incest, NO. Horizontal incest, OK (brother 40/sister 30).
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Re: Incest

Postby Skelaturi » Mon, 15Aug10 13:13

And D&S stand for desire and submission right?

Yes been caught in some topics wich had incest in them, so will just aswell talk here (If not its cowardly). Yes i do like partial incest. I cannot approve of fathers/mothers/uncles/aunts/grandpas/grandma's etc doing it with daughters/sons/nieces/nephews/grandchildren. But either a romantic path or self exploration for brothers and sisters, cousins. Well i do not see a problem with that. And that basicly is caused by the fact that modern media has a line as "dude i just banged some twins" in movies and tv shows. Noone would think,about that those twinsthat they are still sisters.

and was still makign this when mortze already replied, agree with him all the way about the subject (personally i do not mind seeing a orc screwing a elf, but thats all personal preferance)
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Re: Incest

Postby kexter » Mon, 15Aug10 15:01

My personal stance: anything goes where consenting adults are involved (and they pose no threat to others - no sex in the driver's seat on the road, please).
Want to sniff dirty socks stuffed in you wife's muff? Ehmm, okay...
Want to shoot in the air with an AK-47 while you ride out your orgasm on top of your man, cowgirl-style? Notify the relevant authorities about your planned stunt before hand, and exercise proper firearm safety...

Anyways, I'm just wondering, would my "favorite" soap plot-line be okay? Namely, girl doesn't know her parents, falls for guy, turns out guy's father is her father, they break, but wait(!) it turns out that the guy's father is in fact not the real father of the guy so everything is fine. Apart from the cheating parents, of course. (Sorry about the spoiler for every other soap opera.) Technically, in this scenario, no real incest occurs.

Also what if an old man marries his young secretary and then the son has the hots on for his new "mom"? Or if old guy goes out with young chick but then meets the potential mother-in-law and falls for her?

And seeing as Skelaturi already tossed in the idea of threesomes with twins (note: guys can be twins as well, so "girl, I just banged some twins" goes as well - or to be fair, there are mixed gender twins as well, so yeah...). What about mother-daughter threesomes? So like, what if I want to develop a story where in the club this fit 50-year old gal comes up to the protagonist and asks if he would want some mother-daughter action and when the guy says yes, he gets stuck with Ms Fifty and her mother, Mrs Eighty.
Or father-son threesomes? Like "Son, you be 18 now so I've done booked you one of 'em fancy hookers... but she ain't no cheap, so we gonna do her together. You front, I'm back, then we switch..."

Or what about this concept I have in mind about a dude who gets it on with his gender-modified clone? Oh, wait, that's been done already... #1 best seller for centuries.
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Re: Incest

Postby Trucla » Mon, 15Aug10 18:27

Thanks Lou!

It looks like you read my mind, as I was thinking about issuing something similar. It's good it was you doing it because you gave us a view of current situation, impasse.
I know not long ago (shame on me, as I should have noticed it when doing the migration) that there is no rule against using incest in games.
Yes, incest as paedophylia (about the last, only images are covered by a rule) are topics that could lead to endless discussions without any conclusion, mainly due to differences of cultures and/or educations.
But let me talk about incest, and state two points:
1.- In my opinion incest exists when there is a sexual relation of any kind involving two persons with consanguinity. For instance between in-laws it is not incest, while I've heard that it is so considered in some legislations.
2.- For me (and surely I'm not alone), any kind of incest is simply disgusting.

Keeping the rules as they are, and for avoiding a lot of discomfort opening a game and at a certain point finding out that it contains material we don't accept, I dare to suggest issuing an announcement in All Sexy Games, RAGS Games and Projects, making compulsory in the first post announcing a new game/project a summary of it. In this summary should be clearly indicated:
a)- The ages of the characters;
b)- If incest of any kind is treated in the game, and if so what kind of incest (even those I don't consider as such).

These are my two cents.
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Re: Incest

Postby Mortze » Mon, 15Aug10 18:41

Trucla wrote:Keeping the rules as they are, and for avoiding a lot of discomfort opening a game and at a certain point finding out that it contains material we don't accept, I dare to suggest issuing an announcement in All Sexy Games, RAGS Games and Projects, making compulsory in the first post announcing a new game/project a summary of it. In this summary should be clearly indicated:
a)- The ages of the characters;
b)- If incest of any kind is treated in the game, and if so what kind of incest (even those I don't consider as such).


Hello Trucla,

About your suggestions I do agree with the b). Although I'd suggest merely hinting if the incest is vertical or horizontal because saying there is incest between brother/sister might be a spoiler, and therefore, ruin the game experience. But I do agree. There was a time where tarted playing a game where it said incest, and the summary talked about brother and sisters and mid-play there was incest with the mother. That made me stop play immediately. So a heads up might be important to avoid those kind of bad surprises.

As of point a) I think it is unecessary. I have not consulted this forum rules about pedophilia but I do hope there are some, stating clearly that is is forrbidden. If not I do suggest making some.
If there are such rules saying the age is not important. The rules manage that issue. But we cannot hope that every game will feature characters all over 18. There is a huge demand for more younger characters like 16/17. And it cannot be considered pedophilia if there is no exploitation/cohercion involved. More the case if the sex is between people around the same age.
Does it chokes people a sex scene between a 16 girl and a 19 boy? I don't think so. Not more than a sex scene between a 18 girl and a 80 man and here we are within the full boundaries of legality.
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Re: Incest

Postby LRM » Mon, 15Aug10 18:54

Trucla wrote:Trimmed by Lou

Yes, incest as paedophylia (about the last, only images are covered by a rule) are topics that could lead to endless discussions without any conclusion, mainly due to differences of cultures and/or educations.
But let me talk about incest, and state two points:
1.- In my opinion incest exists when there is a sexual relation of any kind involving two persons with consanguinity. For instance between in-laws it is not incest, while I've heard that it is so considered in some legislations.


Thanks back at you my friend.
That's in large part why the impasse. Is a brother, clandestinely watching his sister bathing, while pleasuring himself incest? I'll let each of you draw your own conclusion.
And how on God's green earth do you explain that this point is as far as you can go?
If and when Shark objects to something published here, in the Lagoon, then I'll have something to gauge exactly what is allowed. Until that time all is open IMO. I also understand that limits often change.
I'm quite sure if I deal too harshly (or easily) with something, a little bird will whisper in my ear. I expect nothing less. I listen to that bird!
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Re: Incest

Postby Greebo » Mon, 15Aug10 19:01

Underage sex? Rule out Romeo and Juliet! They would have fallen at the first fence in most of the US -- even in the latter day UK Juliet would have been skating on very thin ice, but in Shakespeare's day she would have been nothing out of the ordinary. The morality is temporally and culturally controlled
Last edited by Greebo on Mon, 15Aug10 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incest

Postby Trucla » Mon, 15Aug10 19:07

Mortze wrote:As of point a) I think it is unecessary. I have not consulted this forum rules about pedophilia but I do hope there are some, stating clearly that is is forrbidden. If not I do suggest making some.
If there are such rules saying the age is not important. The rules manage that issue. But we cannot hope that every game will feature characters all over 18. There is a huge demand for more younger characters like 16/17. And it cannot be considered pedophilia if there is no exploitation/cohercion involved. More the case if the sex is between people around the same age.
Does it chokes people a sex scene between a 16 girl and a 19 boy? I don't think so. Not more than a sex scene between a 18 girl and a 80 man and here we are within the full boundaries of legality.
May be you didn't read a part of what I wrote
... Yes, incest as paedophylia (about the last, only images are covered by a rule)...
And the rules are here
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Re: Incest

Postby Rexxx » Mon, 15Aug10 20:52

It's difficult to express a complete opinion on incest theme, it depends on how it is told,like other taboo subjects can be good for the story or wasted or a bad thing.
I'm not sure if i agree with the difference between vertical and horizontal (aside that each of one has things that like or dislike) if one isn't too young.
There is a thing that on which I have sometimes pondered, in several media (books, movies, ...) there are some cases in which 2 people that love each other cannot be together because it's incest, but at the end they discover that this isn't true (maybe because one is adopted) an so can be together, there are other cases in which 2 lovers discover to be brother and sister for example and at this point they need to separate (in some cases with horror reactions at the discover).
Rationally this is so strange, if you have feelings for someone it's not so easily to change feelings (I love you, no you are my brother I don't love you more, no you are adopted I still love you), but when I read or see the scene, at first I find the reaction perfectly normal.
In any case we have to remember that we are speaking of incest in fiction not in reality, it's different to shoot in a game than in the true world.
The same events are constructed to be particular, in the real life it's more difficult to happen, it's like some tv series "realistic", if you see an episode you can think "it's strange but can happen", but it's when you think the series completely you understand that it's unrealistic, because too much particular experiences happen always to the same people.
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Re: Incest

Postby Mortze » Mon, 15Aug10 21:19

Trucla wrote:And the rules are here


Said rules state that
The following content is prohibited:
- Images featuring models under 18 years old


Here you have a major loophole. 3D figures don't have an age. They are artificial creations. I can render a child look-a-like figure and say it is an old 300 years elf in my story. Still wrong because of the childish features but legally acceptable. I suggest a correction of that rule clearly stating that all models must be adults in appearance if said models particiapate in any sexual activity.

Trucla wrote:May be you didn't read a part of what I wrote
... Yes, incest as paedophylia (about the last, only images are covered by a rule)...


Yeah, didn't read well that part. Sorry.
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Re: Incest

Postby jfrancois323 » Tue, 15Aug11 03:00

LRM, i understand your opinion, BUT you're one of the first persons to said that Shark have every rights to do what he do the way he do and if we're not happy with that its our decision. what could made your futur opinion fair, if you dont follow what you said.

as a moderator, you are the one who make the laws apply, even if you dont like them. Shark has always be careful with what he does, he never go far, so i will continue to trust him.

I also think you should think if you are ready to accept his decisions

sorry if i sound rude, but english ist not my primary language, if you want better explaination, i could tell you in French. i respect has much than before this post.

Take care of yourself!!
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Re: Incest

Postby Skelaturi » Tue, 15Aug11 04:46

kexter wrote:And seeing as Skelaturi already tossed in the idea of threesomes with twins (note: guys can be twins as well, so "girl, I just banged some twins" goes as well - or to be fair, there are mixed gender twins as well, so yeah...). What about mother-daughter threesomes?


didn't think of that one, and its actually quite difficult for me. Cause if i was in a threesome with a hot mom and daughter. I would feel lucky, if i would think of a mother / son or father /daughter i would say, thats just wrong. And father son and hooker, well they probaly will not interact with eachother, if yes wrong. But again with mom/daughter i would ^^. So quite difficult subject incest actually is.

Mortze wrote:
Trucla wrote:And the rules are here


Said rules state that
The following content is prohibited:
- Images featuring models under 18 years old


Here you have a major loophole. 3D figures don't have an age. They are artificial creations. I can render a child look-a-like figure and say it is an old 300 years elf in my story. Still wrong because of the childish features but legally acceptable. I suggest a correction of that rule clearly stating that all models must be adults in appearance if said models particiapate in any sexual activity.

Trucla wrote:May be you didn't read a part of what I wrote
... Yes, incest as paedophylia (about the last, only images are covered by a rule)...


Yeah, didn't read well that part. Sorry.


going offtopic here, but with the underage thing i am also quite confused regarding the artificial models. I do understand for real pictures of underaged boys and girls, and thats understandable. But the truth is what if its a picture of someone thats above that age, but in the fictional story she is underage? Or what if its and 3d picture?

For both incest and underage (14-17ish dunno exact age, not younger then that though i think), there are quite a few 3d pictures and fictional games on these forums that have them in. And some of these games have been rated by the community as excellent and keep in mind some of these games also attracted new members. (not gonna name any do not want them to close down and be called a snitch) And it would be a shame if all of a sudden these games would dissappear from the lagoon. That is if the rules would be clarified / expanded/ less confusing. I for one will accept.

Now last thing is rape, its wrong and in a non adult ame called ThisWarofmine i always felt pleasure killing that bastard soldier who was about to do that to a girl who was just hungry. But where does rape start i ask, again i seen some games on here who got it borderline. Is feeding a girl/guy drunk to have sex with her/him later rape? Is someone that is invisible, but feeling up and eventually having sex, rape? MC is it rape? Again fiction vs non-fiction, its confusing. Atleast to me

further of topic
On the underage subject i present 2 problems: A 14-15 yr girl/boy has a crush on a 19+ guy/girl and wants to have sex with him. Now you would say she/he is underaged and immature thats wrong, but the girl/boy in question is actually quite wise for her/his age and has matured early on a mental level. Is it wrong?

The second theory consist of 2 people both above the age of 18, but 1 of them is "special", a learning disorder some growing issues. Bit of authism large/small. The mental condition of that person would be well younger( Lets say 13-15) and he/she can not take any real descisions on her/his own. Is this wrong?

@jfrancois323, i am actually confused by your post. I feel like you misunderstoond Lou. But that could be on my end.
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Re: Incest

Postby ltpika » Tue, 15Aug11 05:34

Lot of hypocrisy going on here. There are over 100 games here that feature incest. Even if marked as such, they won't be touched because they're by beloved creators like goblinboy.
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Re: Incest

Postby LRM » Tue, 15Aug11 06:40

jfrancois323 wrote:LRM, i understand your opinion, BUT you're one of the first persons to said that Shark have every rights to do what he do the way he do and if we're not happy with that its our decision. what could made your futur opinion fair, if you dont follow what you said.

As a moderator, you are the one who make the laws apply, even if you don’t like them. Shark has always be careful with what he does, he never go far, so i will continue to trust him.

I also think you should think if you are ready to accept his decisions sorry if i sound rude, but English is not my primary language, if you want better explanation, i could tell you in French. i respect has much than before this post.

Take care of yourself!!

I’m not arguing that Shark’s opinion apparently differs from mine. As Shark’s agent my opinion should be secondary to his, I understand that. I enforce what Shark deems is allowable. He hasn’t in the six years I’ve been here conveyed what that is for incest. I don’t have to like incest, or play anything that portrays it, to ensure compliance with Shark’s wishes.
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Skelaturi wrote: Text trimmed
going offtopic here.

I said and meant:
LRM wrote: This is MY thread!!! You may wonder as far afield as you desire!
There is no off topic in this thread! If things go too far astray I can prune any text.
Lou



ltpika wrote:Lot of hypocrisy going on here. There are over 100 games here that feature incest. Even if marked as such, they won't be touched because they're by beloved creators like goblinboy.

I think you too aren’t seeing the message here. IMO Shark (and therefore I) sees no great problem in presenting incest. I think Shark himself said as much here:
Shark wrote:As a moderator, Squeeky is owner of his decisions.
I have not followed this thread but more than incest, what bothers me is when a guy registers on the forum to promote another site, especially when this site offers a financial contribution (I have not developed this forum as a advertising billboard). As for the rest, the project can be easily found on google, so I consider that the debate is closed.

Shark’s complaint IMO, was JB Games advertising a pay site here. And to be completely honest there was at the time of JB’s post no incest included. I think the title certainly hinted there might be, but that violates no current or past Lagoon guideline.
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