DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Sat, 15Mar21 22:11

tlaero wrote:I'd like for you to explain why you think you're entitled to benefit from all of my efforts for free.


I'm not, keep your works for yourself as much as you like. You're the one who, through copyright laws, is entitled to own part of my property. If I write in my disk a copy of your works you get to tell me what I can or can not do with it, maybe even seize it.

You're the one who thinks ideas can be property when property is only so because it is scarce, ideas aren't scarce. Calling them intellectual property is what makes them scarce which means the definition is circular. The better name is intellectual monopoly, that doesn't sound so good, does it?
Last edited by wodahSShadow on Sat, 15Mar21 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Sat, 15Mar21 22:17

@sportd: Is your array code manually written or generated by a tool/editor?


All hand written. ThePhysio uses a tool I wrote which loads all data into appropriate tables and takes care of the page links (updating old pages as their linked pages are created in the future).

I thought the answer was clear, objects and properties. It remains similar except much less array indexing and allows you to give descriptive names, instead of just numbers, to each scene.
I really don't see what advantage a DB would give.


Javascript has come along way in the last four years and modern browsers can do some incredible things on javascript alone. I write all my programmes with the idea that as many people as possible can play my game. That means for theGym, ie6 is supported (barely) and thePhysio ie7 is supported (and older versions of chrome, firefox, opera etc...)

They really struggled with the size of the arrays and the indexing to a point where I had to split them into sections. Now we all agree there are better ways to do this.

Older browsers struggle with large arrays and complex calculations so I let chose to move the computing power serverside to do the work which I could test as a known entity. This means that older browsers get the best possible experience and newer browsers would not be negatively impacted. These are all things that need to be taken into account which is why I asked: Without using arrays and indexedDB, how would you do the datasets and as GreyElf pointed out, objects are just arrays so they would be excluded too.) Remember that we are criticizing a game that was drawn up and the way data was used decided around two and a half years ago so take into account the older technology at the time.

As of now, with client side computing speeds improving and data transfer increasing, there is an argument against serverside databases for small/medium enterprise but two and a half years ago, not all browsers or machines in general were able to manage with the computing required.

wodahSShadow wrote:
tlaero wrote:What do you do for a living?
Does this matter to your argument


The actual job doesn't, but I'd like to know if you create original digital content (and if you do, do you distribute it with the intent to make a living?)

wodahSShadow wrote:I really don't see what advantage a DB would give.


Can you qualify these statements a little more. I gather you mean in this instance. I think Google may have some pretty strong arguments for the advantages of a database. I initially thought you had no idea what a databases benefits were... but you have made comments since that show you probably have a good sense of what javascript can do so I assume you have a grasp on databases too.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Sat, 15Mar21 23:15

The following is one (likely contrived) example of a possible future where the things (Copyright, Terms of Use, Recommended Retail Pricing, etc..) that current either encourage or force people to pay for and use a digital item the way the Creator (original Owner) wants are removed. Instead those things are replace with the right for the people to do whatever they want and pay whatever they want with said digital item.

A songwriter decides to use their previously gained skills to write a new song. After some time and effort they have the outline of their new work and now wish to convert that into an actual recording. They can either:

a. Record it themselves.
Pros - Have total control of the end result.
Cons - Have to own the equipment / software required and have the skills / time to do the work. (costs)

b. Pay a studio to record it.
Pros - They have the equipment / software / skills required. (costs)
Cons - They will have access to the end result.

Because the studio is allowed to do whatever they want with the digital item it is not unreasonable to suggest that they may make it available on-line.

Now that the songwriter has a recorded copy of their new song they would like some of their friends / fan to hear it and give feedback on it. Because those friends / fans are allowed to record/copy the new song it is not unreasonable to suggest that some of these friends/fans may make it available on-line.

After getting good feedback the songwriter decides to try and make some money from the new song, so they make it available on their own web-site hoping that some charitable people are willing to pay something to get a copy of the new song from him, the same new song that those same people can get for free somewhere else.

---

At this point I could give examples of:
a. the artist doing public performances, which the public are allowed to record (audio/video) and put on-line.
b. Radio stations playing the new song, and giving the artist a royalty if the felt like it.
c. Any other way an artist tries to make money that can be circumvented via the the new song being available on-line (audio/video) for free.

My premise (likely wrong) is that most people are honest most of the time, that most obey rules/laws most of the time, and that these rules/laws are the main reason most people pay for digital items.

My assertion (again likely wrong) is that if the rules/laws were changed so that people could do whatever they wanted to with digital media, that they did not have to pay for it if they did not want to, and that they could pay whatever amount they wanted to if they did wish to pay, then it is reasonable to believe that it would be difficult for an artist to make a live.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Sun, 15Mar22 00:24

You care about support to IE7, a browser with 0.55% of market share (hell, according to this site IE6 has more users)? It seems you use Google Analytics, how many people with IE 6/7 or old versions of other browsers played your game?

Even if you did get some people using IE6 maybe you should stop supporting it altogether so those government employees get to work.

sportd wrote:Older browsers struggle with large arrays and complex calculations so I let chose to move the computing power serverside to do the work which I could test as a known entity.


Is this a joke? Your games don't have complex calculations. We've had javascript game engines with physics for at least 6 years, that's plenty old, how could you possibly think those browsers couldn't handle your arrays and "complex" calculations.

I almost forgot all the other date games other people have made before you that ran just fine on my crappy laptop years ago.

You don't have to make up excuses. Databases is what you know best and it works as DRM, that's all.

sportd wrote:The actual job doesn't, but I'd like to know if you create original digital content (and if you do, do you distribute it with the intent to make a living?)


It doesn't matter, it's a distraction from the argument, assume either way and you'll see how irrelevant it is. I'd link you a video where Louis Theroux refuses to answer a Neo-Nazi's question for similar reasons but it was taken down because of copyright...

If you really need to know many artists and intellectuals share the same view.

sportd wrote:I think Google may have some pretty strong arguments for the advantages of a database. I initially thought you had no idea what a databases benefits were...


You're the one who made the decision, you're the best source for why it is better. I'd rather discuss directly with you than with what I might find through google.

Greyelf wrote:My assertion (again likely wrong)


Well, that's it then, you yourself say it's likely wrong. I got nothing to say.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Sun, 15Mar22 01:40

wodahSShadow wrote:You care about support to IE7, a browser with 0.55% of market share (hell, according to this site IE6 has more users)? It seems you use Google Analytics, how many people with IE 6/7 or old versions of other browsers played your game?


Are we talking about 2 and a half years ago when all these decisions for thePhysio were made or now?

wodahSShadow wrote:Is this a joke? Your games don't have complex calculations


Correct and no joke. I didn't know the size of the finished game or what the javascript portion would be but (2 and a half years ago) older browsers at the time were limited in their execution speeds. Everything I read led me to believe that server side was the way to go. Remember older browsers usually run on older machines that generally haven't been maintained well and even though a browser may theoretically run fine, all of the other software running in the background can reduce the quality of a browsers output.

wodahSShadow wrote:You don't have to make up excuses. Databases is what you know best and it works as DRM, that's all.


Assumptions assumptions assumptions... why not ask what I am most comfortable rather go off half cocked and fit that assumption to my apparent DRM loving capitalist agenda. I give you the benefit of the doubt if I am unsure of your position, you could try the same courtesy.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Squeeky » Sun, 15Mar22 02:33

Steady. If this thread is to continue to be a source of information then let's be wary that one's stance may be seen as emotive in the eyes of another, and therefore inflammatory. Please be as objective as possible.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Sun, 15Mar22 03:03

sportd wrote:Are we talking about 2 and a half years ago when all these decisions for thePhysio were made or now?


IE7 had around 1.5% in 2013. IE6 had 5% but supporting IE6 is a crime against humanity I think.

sportd wrote:older browsers at the time were limited in their execution speeds.


Compared to what we have now? Sure but your games are visual novels, execution speed was more than enough back then and it is not something you have to worry about.

sportd wrote:Assumptions assumptions assumptions... why not ask what I am most comfortable rather go off half cocked and fit that assumption to my apparent DRM loving capitalist agenda. I give you the benefit of the doubt if I am unsure of your position, you could try the same courtesy.


Assumptions?

sportd wrote:My thoughts for thePhysio were:
If images are cached, traffic won't be continuously high so subsequent playing wont incur high traffic usage.
The game needs to have a connection to my site to stop others from hosting the game without talking to me first
TheGym was written in javascript arrays which was a mess to write and to maintain so I wrote a game creator that saved everything into a mysql database and took care of all the linking for me.
I have worked in a medium sized IT office (500 staff) and have seen the benefits of database driven applications.


I see nothing about performance here. It clearly shows the decision to use a DB to be mainly motivated by your want for DRM and you not knowing javascript that well.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby tlaero » Sun, 15Mar22 03:55

wodah, what's your goal in this thread?

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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Sun, 15Mar22 10:15

tlaero, I think we're close to achieving some insight, so please, do tell us why you're entitled to part of our property through the use of copyright law?

Edit: Forgot to ask, tlaero, what's your opinion on sportd's arguments for using a database? Did you ever have the problems he mentions?
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby tlaero » Sun, 15Mar22 17:14

I don't understand why you think something you took and didn't pay for is your property. I also don't understand why you ignore the cost required to create something in your accounting of the value of digital products.

As for sportd, he's making products that people enjoy. Who cares if he uses arrays or databases? Erotic games are about the story and the imagery. The technology is the least important part.

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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Sun, 15Mar22 20:04

tlaero wrote:I don't understand why you think something you took and didn't pay for is your property.


When did I say the copies are my property? I've made it clear that I don't think ideas are property, property is the medium where the information is stored. My HDD is mine but through copyrights you can undermine my ownership of it.

tlaero wrote:I also don't understand why you ignore the cost required to create something in your accounting of the value of digital products.


Your accounting you mean. I ignore it altogether both for digital and non-digital products because ownership isn't related to the price of the object.

tlaero wrote:As for sportd, he's making products that people enjoy. Who cares if he uses arrays or databases? Erotic games are about the story and the imagery. The technology is the least important part.


Clearly I and sportd care about the technology. I'm going to guess why you didn't give an answer, you never had the problems sportd speaks of. Correct?

I think I have to reiterate the main point, ideas aren't property. Property is what can be conflicted over, we conflict over the use of something when my use of it impedes your use of it. Ideas can't be conflicted over, you have yours I have mine, my use of mine does not affect your use of yours.

You want total control over your ideas? Don't share them. You want some control? Make the person you're giving them to sign a contract. At least you get to sue that person.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Rexxx » Sun, 15Mar22 20:39

I think to have lost the discussion at a certain point, I don't think you will end in a common point of view in a forum, this is a discussion to make in front of a drink head to head (but this is only my personal opinion).
Copyrights is a complicate theme, it's fair until one don't go too far (I won't want to try to explain better this in a forum, because I know that it would be complicate).
At the end sportd hasn't even found at the moment the solution that he finds right for him, he is experimenting, doing errors, etc...
We could begin to speak better when he will be satisfied, but even in that case none could pretend that sportd decide to change it if he doesn't agree.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Sun, 15Mar22 21:01

Rexxx wrote:At the end sportd hasn't even found at the moment the solution that he finds right for him, he is experimenting, doing errors, etc...


Absolutely true.

wohahSShadow wrote:IE7 had around 1.5% in 2013. IE6 had 5% but supporting IE6 is a crime against humanity I think.


Those numbers didn't look right so I checked the analytics. I made a mistake. It should be IE7 and IE8. IE7 was around 12% of browsers and while they could be ignored, I chose not to.

wohahSShadow wrote:I see nothing about performance here. It clearly shows the decision to use a DB to be mainly motivated by your want for DRM and you not knowing javascript that well.


Again assumptions. Back then, I knew javascript a lot better than I knew (or still know) databases today. All I did was look at the dataset I had and find a better that I could represent it. You've seen the arrays, I wrote all of them using copy and paste and I didn't want to do that again. On completion of theGym, I fired up my laptop which was a clean Windows install with all the updates(reduced the speed dramatically) and the game ground to a halt trying to play. The bottleneck was the js. I released early downloads (unfinsihed) for people here to play and some of the feedback was the same. laggy because of the js. I split up the arrays and changed the code to make do. Now javascript may not be the fault here and it may have been able to do the backflips suggested but the browser does have to compete for cpu time and memory just like all the other running processes and it's something that needed to be addressed.

wodahSShadow wrote:
sportd wrote:My thoughts for thePhysio were:
If images are cached, traffic won't be continuously high so subsequent playing wont incur high traffic usage.
The game needs to have a connection to my site to stop others from hosting the game without talking to me first
TheGym was written in javascript arrays which was a mess to write and to maintain so I wrote a game creator that saved everything into a mysql database and took care of all the linking for me.
I have worked in a medium sized IT office (500 staff) and have seen the benefits of database driven applications.


I see nothing about performance here. It clearly shows the decision to use a DB to be mainly motivated by your want for DRM and you not knowing javascript that well.


Also, as DRM was a consideration at the time, and had it happened that javascript was a better way to implement the dataset, I would have looked for a way to add a DRM element to it. It happens that databases are designed to do exactly what I needed. The speed difference may be small but it seemed to be good practice and it made game development a lot quicker.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Sun, 15Mar22 21:45

wodahSShadow wrote:
Greyelf wrote:My assertion (again likely wrong)

Well, that's it then, you yourself say it's likely wrong. I got nothing to say.

No explanation explaining to us why it is wrong?
It follows the principles you state you believe in!

wodahSShadow wrote:My HDD is mine but through copyrights you can undermine my ownership of it.

What they are actually doing is controlling some of the data stored on the HDD through copyrights, not the physical object it self which you have do with as you like.

wodahSShadow wrote:Ideas can't be conflicted over, you have yours I have mine, my use of mine does not affect your use of yours.

Unless your idea is directly derived (a copy) from theirs at which point what you do with you idea can affect the use of theirs.

wodahSShadow wrote:You want some control? Make the person you're giving them to sign a contract. At least you get to sue that person.

Contract laws and the ability to sue someone are built upon the ownership/rights conveyed by Copyright. In your picture of the future what principles are contracts built upon?
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby tlaero » Mon, 15Mar23 01:10

This is just going around in circles. I don't see anything useful coming out of it, so I'm going to stop participating. The time could be better spent elsewhere.

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