DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

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DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Wed, 15Mar18 20:40

For anyone stumbling into this thread, it's a continuation of a conversation started in http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3371 on pages 5 -7 (ish) regarding how thePhysio is hosted and run and what could be done to improve it next time.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Wed, 15Mar18 23:32

@kexter
Thanks for that codeblock, I'll incorporate it and run it side by side during the testing phase to see the improvements.

wodahSShadow wrote:You could also try webm video for the animations.

I looked at this during thePhysio but I was a bit nervous about quality and browser support. Things have come along way since conceptualizing thePhysio and it might be the best fit for theSniper. I'll do some tests and see how it looks.

wodahSShadow wrote:You're saying "This tool is what I know best so it is best for this task." which is at best marginally true, it's cool that you know how to make it work but stick to only using the DRM benefit to justify its use.


I never said that (otherwise you would have quoted it). "This tool is what I know best so it is best for this task." is correct in my circumstance. There will definitely be other ways of doing it and some (maybe all) will be better but I can only implement a strategy with my knowledge base which in my case makes it "best for this task"

wodahSShadow wrote:Imagine you could copy the cleanliness (no idea how that would work) and instantly clean your friend's house. Are you in the wrong for taking a potential sale from the cleaning company?

Yes. It doesn't matter what the intention is.... There is a "greater good" argument against this answer but I don't think we need to go that far.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Thu, 15Mar19 01:19

wodahSShadow wrote:the buyer still gives money but the seller is no longer giving anything back

Yes they are, the seller is giving the buyer the result of the seller's effort and time, which is no different if the end result is physical or a series of bits.

You put together a good argument but in my opinion it contains a serious flaw, that being it sidesteps and does not address the issue of "Unreasonable Gain" from efforts of another.

The transposition of a "created product" to a "supplied service" (with a associate transaction) is an interesting one but your example failed to account for an important component of any transaction, the Contract (Informal, Formal, Agreement, TOS, etc....)

In any transaction between two parties there is some form of contract, it can be as simple (informal) as party 1 promises to do their part (clean the office) if party 2 promises to do theirs (enumerate party 1), to complex (formal) with all sorts of conditions and expectations.

-----
When designing and developing a new piece of software, the developer takes into consideration what tools and techniques they are going to use to built said software, as the saying goes "there are many ways to skin a cat" and this is just as true for developing software with each tool/method having it's own pros and cons.
When making a choice between using a tool(technique) you know (with one set of pros/cons) vs using one you don't (different set of pro/cons), one of the things generally taken into consideration is how long it will take to learn the new tool to a high enough level that you will not use it incorrectly or put another way, not write bad / inefficient code with it.
Again 20/20 hindsight and experience makes this choice easier.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Thu, 15Mar19 11:57

sportd wrote:There will definitely be other ways of doing it and some (maybe all) will be better but I can only implement a strategy with my knowledge base which in my case makes it "best for this task"


So we agree that better tools are available. Only looking at the tools you currently have when deciding which is the best for a task means that if you only have a hammer you better hope everything is a nail.

theGym seems to work fine, I've looked at the code and with some tweaks you could streamline the process of adding scenes. Using a better data structure than just arrays would definitely curb the "misplaced comma" problem.

sportd wrote:Yes. It doesn't matter what the intention is....


Copying the cleanliness is wrong? Copying or cleaning the room yourself is the same from the cleaning company perspective, every time you clean your house you're taking a potential sale from them. You monster.

Greyelf wrote:Yes they are, the seller is giving the buyer the result of the seller's effort and time


Sure, he gives it but he doesn't lose it unlike the buyer who loses money. The buyer doesn't even own what you say he paid for, he still can't do as wishes with the product like you can when buying a physical good. It's a very unequal exchange skewed towards the seller. Copyright gives one side too much power, some people are trying to make it fairer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft.

How does the existence of contracts affect what I said?
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Thu, 15Mar19 14:50

wodahSShadow wrote:How does the existence of contracts affect what I said?

I will use what started this conversation (someone creating software that someone else wants a copy of) as an example, and will use the terms buyer and seller to be consistent with previous comments. eg. The seller creates a piece of software that the buyer wants a copy of.

Each side of the transaction sets their terms: (eg. the contract)
a. The seller's are related to how copies of the software are to be used.
b. The buyer's are related to how they plan to remunerate the seller.

For the transaction to happen both parties have to agree to the contract, so if the buyer does not agree to the seller's terms they can simply choose to not go through with the transaction, but if the buyer does proceed then they should have to live by the terms they agreed to.

wodahSShadow wrote:Copyright gives one side too much power, some people are trying to make it fairer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft.

Copyright is made up of three main parts: 1. Acknowledgement of Ownership of original work; 2. Rights of Owner of original work; 3. How long each right lasts. The majority of the issues people have is with point 3, which was originally less than 15 years (how much depended on where in the world)
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Thu, 15Mar19 16:31

The contract would only apply to the buyer. If someone gets a copy from another source they can't be bound by that contract, only the laws that apply regardless of the contract.

Ownership of ideas? That's intellectual property right? That's a problem.

http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/i ... tfinal.htm

In that link Boldrin and Levine make the case that intellectual property is actually intellectual monopoly and how it hurts more than helps.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby sportd » Fri, 15Mar20 01:31

wodahSShadow wrote:http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/i ... tfinal.htm


This site has some very interesting ideas regarding copyright and and an economic model that would support removing restrictions on redistribution.

There are two things that stand out to me. The first is that my economic rent would be boosted if I stopped making these games and took the job in the IT office that is offered to me every now and again.

The second (assuming I don't throw in the towel) is that I should remove all restrictions to my games and let them be freely distributed. The way in which I recoup my sunk costs (time / money) is to either:
  • Sell my game and charge a high enough fee that selling a small number will cover my costs and / or
  • Provide a generic game and try in some way to personalize the game to individual users so that they may buy the "special" edition and that the resell value of the special edition is poor because of the personalization.

I can see that this could be a way forward because the people who fork out for the initial copies would then resell them for a reasonable rate...and the people who purchase from them... could redistribute at a lower rate again.. until everyone could obtain it for no cost.

The thing is... I am not selling anything. I am inviting people to come to my house (in this case godaddy's servers) and enjoy a story. If you want to help me write the game with a donation, you get invited a little earlier than the rest.

wodahSShadow wrote:So we agree that better tools are available. Only looking at the tools you currently have when deciding which is the best for a task means that if you only have a hammer you better hope everything is a nail.


No. It means that to attach two pieces of wood together I could use a nailgun, hammer and nail, screws and a screwdriver, screws and a powerdrill or some adhesive. The wood is still attached together but the way in which it is done is up for debate. If I used different tools to produce the game, the game would still be similar to the current version.

wodahSShadow wrote:theGym seems to work fine, I've looked at the code and with some tweaks you could streamline the process of adding scenes. Using a better data structure than just arrays would definitely curb the "misplaced comma" problem.

I looked at the code and I have a very streamlined process for adding scenes.
I chose a better data structure than arrays and I have no issue with commas.
Both of these were easily remedied when I used ajax, php and mysql (and for the sniper, indexedDB and javascript replacing the previously mentioned)
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 15Mar20 01:37

wodahSShadow wrote:Ownership of ideas?

I said nothing about ownership of an idea but I did on the other hand associate ownership with the result of a physical activity, that activity in this case being using programming tools, techniques and knowledge to create a piece of software.
1. Acknowledgement of Ownership of original work
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby tlaero » Fri, 15Mar20 01:56

There's no way around this. If Sam creates a product and Bob takes it without Sam's consent, Bob is stealing the product. Bob can invent any justification he wants to help him sleep at night. But he's still a thief.

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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Fri, 15Mar20 02:46

sportd wrote:There are two things that stand out to me. The first is that my economic rent would be boosted if I stopped making these games and took the job in the IT office that is offered to me every now and again.


That's how things usually go when trying to be an artist. Some make a living, few of those get rich and most get nothing and do it for their desire to make art.

sportd wrote:The thing is... I am not selling anything. I am inviting people to come to my house (in this case godaddy's servers) and enjoy a story. If you want to help me write the game with a donation, you get invited a little earlier than the rest.


That's your right. I just feel, like I've said before, disappointment that the game gets locked to the server for little benefit.

sportd wrote:The second (assuming I don't throw in the towel) is that I should remove all restrictions to my games and let them be freely distributed. The way in which I recoup my sunk costs (time / money) is to either:


How many people do you think would have not donated to get the game early if you didn't put in those restrictions?

sportd wrote:No. It means that to attach two pieces of wood together I could use a nailgun, hammer and nail, screws and a screwdriver, screws and a powerdrill or some adhesive. The wood is still attached together but the way in which it is done is up for debate. If I used different tools to produce the game, the game would still be similar to the current version.


Would it? If you just used javascript you wouldn't have the DRM benefit.

Greyelf wrote:I said nothing about ownership of an idea but I did on the other hand associate ownership with the result of a physical activity, that activity in this case being using programming tools, techniques and knowledge to create a piece of software.


Does that mean that a copy of the software wouldn't be owned by the creator? Because a copy of a physical good isn't owned by the owner of the original item.

tlaero wrote:There's no way around this. If Sam creates a product and Bob takes it without Sam's consent, Bob is stealing the product. Bob can invent any justification he wants to help him sleep at night. But he's still a thief.


You had to go there...copyright infringement isn't theft. The creator isn't being deprived of his creation when a copy is made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4

See, copying is fun.
[mod edit: tlaero originally used an incorrct name which she has corrected in her text and is now reflected in the quote.]
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby tlaero » Fri, 15Mar20 03:24

Before you tell me what is and isn't stealing, I suggest you spend all of your free time for 10 months making something only to have someone take it and distribute it as his own.

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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 15Mar20 04:24

The near future world of 3D printing in almost any material may be a sad day for independent artists and craftsman.

Jane spends a large period of time mastering her tools (physical or digital), learning the techniques /art of her craft and then uses all this to create an original work.

John spends a hour learning how to use a camera to take photos of Jane's original work, how to import these photos in to 3D modeling software and how to press the "Do It" button on a 3D printer.

Now some people would point out that both people can use the 3D printer to make copies of the original work, that both can sell these copies and therefore Jane has not been deprived of anything. And the same people would probably say that the fact that Jane had to go to greater efforts to end up with the same result as John just shows that John in a better business person, that Jane could of done the same thing as John to another artists or craftsman.

So what is the motivation for an artists or craftsman to go to the extra effort of creating an original work?
Some people will answer it is the "love of creating things" but this reason does not help pay the bills, and Jane's bills are higher (assuming cost of printing and sale price of item are the same for both people) because she has to spend the extra time learning the craft and making the original work.

<sarcasm>But remember all is fair because John has not deprived Jane of the original work.</sarcasm>
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Fri, 15Mar20 12:33

tlaero wrote:Before you tell me what is and isn't stealing, I suggest you spend all of your free time for 10 months making something only to have someone take it and distribute it as his own.


There are two parts to this argument, the taking and the incorrect attribution. Stealing doesn't imply incorrect attribution so only the taking matters to the argument. Making a copy isn't taking or depriving someone so it still isn't stealing. This has been discussed at length in courts, it still isn't stealing.

I'm all for correct attribution, the free software community in general values attribution although not all licenses allow you to mandate it.

tlaero wrote:The near future world of 3D printing in almost any material may be a sad day for independent artists and craftsman.


Decades ago: The near future world of digital media may be a sad day for independent musicians, film makers and photographers.

What you fear has already happened and the results aren't a drop of original works.

I said the lack of deprivation makes it not stealing, I didn't say it made everything fair. Try to be more honest.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 15Mar20 14:14

wodahSShadow wrote:Decades ago: The near future world of digital media may be a sad day for independent musicians, film makers and photographers.
What you fear has already happened and the results aren't a drop of original works.

And one of the major ways a lot of them stopped themselves from going under was through reducing their costs by cutting out the middle man and turning to the internet for marketing and distribution of their digital product. Not sure how those that make a physical product will resolve the same distribution problem.

Have you actually spoken to any of those "independent musicians, film makers and photographers" and asked them what sort of return they are getting for the effort they put in, because I do on a regular bases (only tonight I had dinner with an independent director and a script editor) and most of the people I know are barely making ends meet. A travel writer/photographer I know is regularly complaining about people coping her photos off professional photo sales websites and selling them to other magazines. I know a folk musician in legal proceedings with a foreign music website company that is selling a copy his CD they bootlegged.

So all is not rainbows and kittens in the post digital media world as you alluded to.
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Re: DRM, downloadable content, load times etc..

Postby wodahSShadow » Fri, 15Mar20 16:37

Greyelf wrote:Not sure how those that make a physical product will resolve the same distribution problem.


Artisans shouldn't be too worried, we won't have 3D printers that work with any material for a while. Until then you'll have to get your weaved vine baskets from someone.

It's not all rainbows and kittens to those who refuse to change their business model. Those two people you know put their work out in the open expecting a sum of money for every copy made, fools. Others have adapted and get fund independently of how many copies are made, see KickStarter and *** for examples.

Maybe your friends should get into the blockbuster industry, they're making billions in profit despite being the most pirated items.

You haven't addressed this:

wodahSShadow wrote:
Greyelf wrote:I said nothing about ownership of an idea but I did on the other hand associate ownership with the result of a physical activity, that activity in this case being using programming tools, techniques and knowledge to create a piece of software.


Does that mean that a copy of the software wouldn't be owned by the creator? Because a copy of a physical good isn't owned by the owner of the original item.


You said the software is the result of an activity and that result is owned by the programmer. Is there a difference to a carpenter that uses his tools, techniques and knowledge to create a table? If I create a copy of that table who owns it? If the carpenter owns it doesn't that mean he owns the idea of the table, not just the original table, which makes it intellectual property? If the carpenter doesn't own the copy does that mean the programmer doesn't own the copy I made of his software?
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