The World

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Re: The World

Postby Greebo » Mon, 14Oct27 21:19

PinkVendetta wrote:Not gullible or out to provoke, provoke open thought outside of the closed thought of fossil fuels are the only way, or energy from the sun is the only other way, simple fact is this, oil, petrol, could easily have been shelved 50 years ago and cars could easily have been running on the planet and not polluting it, cars running on non polluting fuels is not something new BTW.

We have cut our fuel consumption drastically by running a Prius and look forward to better vehicles when they are available -- (Toyota are claiming to be launching a hydrogen fuel cell car next year, while Tesla are developing a high performance, highly economical, comparatively reasonably priced electric car with 300mile+ range and sub 30min charge time at a suitable charge station)
PinkVendetta wrote:Fluoride in our table water (Drinking Water) is not good for us.

The UK has minimal artificial fluoridisation of water at present and our family drinks mainly bottled spring water. We do use toothpaste with added fluoride, but the fluoride content is low and the effects localised to where it is needed

PinkVendetta wrote:GM foods are not good for us.

Unlike the US, the UK does not allow the GM lobby to ride roughshod over the wishes of sceptics who don't believe in GM products getting on the supermarket shelves after minimal testing, so hardly any are available in the UK, although the present US/UK/EU trade negotiations going on behind closed doors at the moment endanger our present policy. As I understand it, GM foods are not necessarily not good for us -- it's just that the present testing regime lacks the thoroughness and long term isolation methodology required for ultimate safety

PinkVendetta wrote:sugar/corn oil/corn syrup is not good for us.

I use sugar happily, but I'm willing to accept that too much would be a bad idea, and corn syrup is used to a dangerous extent by food product manufacturers

PinkVendetta wrote:Even organic food meant to be good for us is somewhat polluted by cross pollination from GM blowing in the wind.

Not so true in the UK where there is minimal growth of GM crops except for small experimental plots a while back producing righteous anger from nearby organic farmers. I'm not sure to what extent GM experimental plots still survive in the UK except in isolating polytunnels
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Re: The World

Postby Jackyda » Mon, 14Oct27 23:24

I fully agree with my friend ( or "best ennemy" since I used to play rugby , many years ago ! ) from the old continent. I used to live in the states in the sixties, and I am very happy to be back here, even if I left my best friends on the other side of the ocean...
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Re: The World

Postby LRM » Mon, 14Oct27 23:58

Greebo wrote:We have cut our fuel consumption drastically by running a Prius and look forward to better vehicles when they are available -- (Toyota are claiming to be launching a hydrogen fuel cell car next year, while Tesla are developing a high performance, highly economical, comparatively reasonably priced electric car with 300mile+ range and sub 30min charge time at a suitable charge station)

I don't want to get into a discussion about your Prius or Hydrogen but...
Unless the electricity generated is done with wind, solar, or geothermal, it too adds hydrocarbons (or worse radioactive waste that must be stored away for countless generations). The up side of the Prius is the stored energy can be generated during off peak hours. The down side is eventually the lithium batteries will fail. One more toxic additive into our pool of toxic additives called landfills or the huge floating garbage islands in our oceans.
Most hydrogen is generated from cracked natural gas. The energy required to produce it is far more than will ever recovered when it's used. The up side there too it can be generated during off peak hours.
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Re: The World

Postby Greyelf » Tue, 14Oct28 02:35

PinkVendetta wrote:Not gullible or out to provoke, provoke open thought outside of the closed thought of fossil fuels are the only way, or energy from the sun is the only other way, simple fact is this, oil, petrol, could easily have been shelved 50 years ago and cars could easily have been running on the planet and not polluting it, cars running on non polluting fuels is not something new BTW.

Fluoride in our table water (Drinking Water) is not good for us.

GM foods are not good for us.

sugar/corn oil/corn syrup is not good for us.

Even organic food meant to be good for us is somewhat polluted by cross pollination from GM blowing in the wind.

The problem with statements like the above is that things in the real world are not as simple as they make out.

Take the "GM foods are not good for us" statement for instance, almost everything we eat is genetically different from what naturally existed sometime in the past due to processes like Selective Breading or Cross Pollination/Grafting depending on if it is Fauna or Flora. These techniques take time (multiple generations) to create a stable result which generally gives us more time to test for unknown/unwanted effects.
The three main issues with GM are:
1. The result is generally deliberately sterile to force the farmers into buying their breading/seed stock on an ongoing bases. So farmers cannot use their existing herd/crop to grow the next years.

2. The result is generally patented to allow control of who you can buy your breading/seed stock from. This can cause legal issues if your non-GM stock gets mixed/contaminated with GM-stock because the companies that own the GM patent will want to be paid.

3. The result has not generally been as thoroughly tested for unknown/unwanted effects because that takes extra time and money.
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Re: The World

Postby Greebo » Tue, 14Oct28 03:10

Actually, Lou, having followed the arguments for years, I spent quite a while researching the facts and fallacies, the pros and cons about hybrids in general and the Prius range and Toyota in particular, before my wife and I took the plunge and finally purchased a two and a half year old Prius Spirit with 25,000 miles on the clock. So far I find it to be a delightful vehicle to drive with 60-100% better fuel consumption than our old 1.8 litre Vauxhall Astra CDX estate yet a similar performance.

When I was investigating the Prius and its manufacturer, Toyota, I came across suggestions from the anti-Prius lobby that the batteries were evil, using nickel that was mined in a way that was poisoning Canada, and that there was even a report making out that the environmental and other costs of manufacturing and running a Prius were greater than for a Hummer! What a load of buffalo doo doo! Certainly nickel mining is a dirty, nasty business that needs its act cleaning up, but only about 5-6% of the world nickel production goes into NiMH batteries -- most of the output goes into the stainless steels that upmarket car manufacturers like to build into their vehicles.

As far as environmentally friendly manufacture is concerned, most of the other vehicle manufacturers would do well to emulate Toyota, who have had an ongoing agenda since the '90s to clean up their manufacturing techniques and materials until they now have 5 worldclass production facilities around the world that take pride in being extremely eco-friendly. Much of the plastic in their vehicles has been recycled and even the paints they use are designed to be very low toxicity, and as for those dreaded NiMH batteries -- they are designed with recycling into fresh batteries in mind after the 8 or more years of their life, and though I'm not sure what the policy is now, there used to be a bounty on the batteries to encourage them to be returned for recycling at the end of their lives.

If you are from the US you can be pretty sure your Prius will have been built in the States (I gather there's a big newish facility at Ann Arbor) and it's a fair bet our UK one was built in the UK.

As you can tell, Toyota impress the hell out of me!
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Re: The World

Postby Squeeky » Tue, 14Oct28 03:31

I was wondering how to address "genetic engineering" concisely.
Yes, there are many hybrids of various plants around which did not exist until Man's interference (roses, orchids quickly come to mind).
So what does "genetically modified" really mean? Someone plays "God" and bypasses what Nature might randomly (but not necessarily would) throw up many years into the future.

I'd like to be able to offer a source but can't. However at least on one product strict scrutiny showed no harmful difference between the GM outcome and that "naturally" farmed - and I think that was canola/rapeseed. Because I can't verify that, let's put that down as hearsay.

The big problem with such GM products however would seem to be that the genetic structure, although designed to overcome some weakness, can be so dominant as to override existing strains, ie, one in time is left with only one variety. What happens then if that variety eventually comes under some weakness? Can that be GM'd at a later time? I like different styles of rice, tea, coffee ..... I'm not against GM per se, but when it involves exclusion, either against nature or by monopoly, no thank you.
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Re: The World

Postby LRM » Tue, 14Oct28 06:23

I have no problem with Toyota. No matter where it's manufactured.
The rouge river in Michigan was home to Ford for many many years. Have you ever seen a river burn? I have.
I doubt that'll ever occur near a Toyota plant.
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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Thu, 14Oct30 14:59

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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Thu, 14Oct30 15:21

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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Thu, 14Oct30 15:28

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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Thu, 14Oct30 15:37

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Re: The World

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 14Oct31 01:02

PinkVendetta wrote:Bizarre how anyone could say that the Prius has worse fuel consumption that a Hummer LMAO

That is not what Greebo wrote!

Greebo spoke about a report (which I have also read) that states "that the environmental and other costs of manufacturing and running a Prius were greater than for a Hummer".

A Prius contains a lot more exotic materials than a Hummer does, for example the batteries that a Prius uses, the same ones that currently need to be replaced every 10yrs(ish).
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Re: The World

Postby Greebo » Fri, 14Oct31 01:28

I'm not sure that a Prius has much more in the way of exotic materials than a Hummer, and what is more the main import of that ridiculous report has been well and truly debunked since (except in the minds of some Hummer owners perhaps, along with Mr Jeremy Clarkson, who has taken it upon himself to denigrate anything that doesn't make loud noises while he's sending it sideways round a track!)
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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Fri, 14Oct31 10:18

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Re: The World

Postby PinkVendetta » Fri, 14Oct31 10:34

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