Saving Chloe (En, Sp, Fr)

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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby tlaero » Fri, 18Jan05 20:42

I'm loving the discussion. Keep it up. A few thoughts:

Information in the canon vs side paths:
Fundamentally, if the canon path has all the information from the side paths, then there's no point in doing the side paths. The suggestion to pull some of the side path scenes into the canon really would have just removed those side paths and made the game more linear. Agency or story--they're in violent opposition. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never tried to write a story game with agency before.

That said, it's possible that I didn't balance it ideally. For the most part, I wrote the side paths first and the canon last. I think, because I wrote it that way, I subconsciously assumed that people will play it that way (if I did, that was a silly assumption). I know that in my last testing playthroughs of the canon path I said to myself, "Wait a minute. If someone plays this path first, they won't understand what that means." I had to go back and make some changes to clean those areas up.

Characters:
Funny story around Theresa. I briefly considered writing a game with Theresa as the protagonist, but realized that it would be seriously hard to have choices in a dating game with a woman who always knew if you were lying. One thing that writers always struggle with is giving information that is subtle but that their readers can still get. I put small hints as to Theresa's power in the bonus scene of DwE, but they were probably too small for anyone to catch. So, in the post-credits scene of RfJ I practically put in a neon sign that said "power!" and pointed it at Theresa. Many people still didn't see it. This isn't a poor reflection on them. It just points out the challenge writers face with their diverse audiences.

I don't know if you're all familiar with Eric Clapton, the musician, but he has a live acoustic album in which he plays acoustic versions of his normal rock songs. In one of the songs, he starts by saying, "See if you can spot this one." On the first few chords, some people start clapping. When he starts singing, "What will you do if you get lonely..." more people start clapping. And when he gets to the chorus, "Layla..." the rest of the people clap. That's a perfect example of this. How do I make what you need to know clear when some people understand a throw away line in a bonus and others read an exposition brain dump and don't fully get it? Another one, if you're a patron and you've read all of the short stories (some haven't been released publicly), then it's possible for you to know who Tora (the cat) really is. I suspect Mortze is the only one who knows. And I just had a conversation with an amazing guy who "gets" my characters almost better than I do, but he didn't understand the significance of a bunch of the things that happened in Dream Master. I'm not disappointed by these things. I'm just bringing them up to point out why you sometimes need an actual brain dump at the end to make absolutely sure people understand what's happening. The people who clapped after the first 3 chords in Acoustic Layla knew all the details given in the brain dump at the end before they started playing Saving Chloe.

Morland:
Morland is going to live for just short of forever, is basically unstoppable, and enjoys the process of taking over the world more than the end result. He's playing the long game. He started in this realm with nothing and made himself rich. Now he's going to control the mayor. Then he'll move on to the governor. Then the president. Then he'll take over the world. It's not that he's weak. It's that you're seeing the despot early in his career.

His power is almost unstoppable, though. Imagine what you could do if you immediately knew the result of any action you considered. The only reason anyone had a chance of stopping him is that Chloe negates his power.


Favorites who didn't appear:
I'll just say that I'm a little worried about "The Avengers: Infinity War" with it's cast of like 64 heroes. It's going to be a challenge for them to tell a compelling story about any of them when that many need to get screen time. Getting more characters into Saving Chole and making them significant would have been tough.

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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby JFR » Fri, 18Jan05 21:24

tlaero wrote:...
Funny story around Theresa. I briefly considered writing a game with Theresa as the protagonist, but realized that it would be seriously hard to have choices in a dating game with a woman who always knew if you were lying. One thing that writers always struggle with is giving information that is subtle but that their readers can still get. I put small hints as to Theresa's power in the bonus scene of DwE, but they were probably too small for anyone to catch. ...

I have been very much enjoying the way you are filling in the backstory and details of the world we visit in the "Elsa-verse." The short stories have been great for that but there is still more to figure out and some of it will not be coming since the games series has climaxed. With Theresa at the end of DwE, I recall having a definite feeling that there was more there than met the eye and being just a little frustrated with myself for being so "dense" that I didn't have it figured out. It is nice to know that there was something there even if I had to wait until RfJ and beyond to get it. ;)

FWIW, I think you did a nice job of separating the canon path and the alternative stories. Some of them actually are different stories, not just variations on the canon theme. I don't see how you could have logically incorporated them together. The non-canon paths are almost like having a new set of short stories in the same world.

It is nice to know from the in-game teaser that there will be more stories forthcoming in the world you have created. I must confess that the possibility of seeing some of our favorite characters again in the new setting is also encouraging. I know I am not alone in having developed an affinity for some of them. There is a reason David Weber has been able to stretch his Honor-verse book series to a couple dozen novels and several anthologies. When we find a character or group of characters we really like, we want to see more of them. I really like Elsa, Jess, Miranda and the rest and would like to see more. Maybe a short or two with Jess and some of what was hinted at in SC. <hint, hint>
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby DarthMelkor » Fri, 18Jan05 23:34

First of all, Thanks to tlaero and Mortze for another great game. You guys have set our expectations sky high and you always exceed them.


I was a little apprehensive initially when I saw the game size is only about 140MB. Then, I played the non-canon path first and finished it in 15 minutes without any sex scene (ran away with Chloe) but then I started to explore more and more and am genuinely amazed by how much you managed to pack in such a small sized game. People commend you guys for your story and visuals (as they should) but I would also like to appreciate the programming part as well. Also, your games are very well tested and there're hardly ever any bugs in them. It's really difficult to bring it all together and you manage to do it repeatedly. Kudos.



psst - You can increase the game size to give us high resolution images, we will not complain.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Brocho » Fri, 18Jan05 23:44

Tlaero, I'm curious whether you ever considered a game with Xara as the title character? If you hadn't had Lucas agree to help her with her social skills, then it might have been interesting to have a new character do it and make a game out of it.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Mortze » Fri, 18Jan05 23:48

DarthMelkor wrote:psst - You can increase the game size to give us high resolution images, we will not complain.


That's a tricky business.
The current resolution isn't only because of the game size and download times. It is also to make possible to deliver an IRay rendered game in less than a year or 2.
Our current resolution is 1250X625 pixels. We compact the .jpg to 70% of their quality (reducing the image size) but the resolution stays the same; 1250X625.
If I was to render pictures with higher resolution - that you find in other creator's games - the rendering time would be immensely higher. For instance, doubling the resolution to 2500X1250 would increase the rendering time to 4X. Not 2X, but 4X! That means a picture that took me 16 minutes (in the bonus scene for example) would take me a little over an hour. That scene has +- 90 pictures. The game has 1700+- pictures. My current average time is 15 to 20 minutes a picture.
The math isn't helping us in choosing higher resolution pictures, to my regret...

I see Xara has a new fan base! :)
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby JFR » Sat, 18Jan06 00:40

DarthMelkor wrote:...
psst - You can increase the game size to give us high resolution images, we will not complain.

Please speak for yourself. A number of us would complain. One of the biggest complaints I see about some newer game developers is bloated download files. There is no justification for game images to be 1 MB+ png files when a quick and easy conversion can result in similar quality images in near lossless formats that are well under 100 KB. I have dropped patronage for developers I liked because they simply wouldn't learn that lesson. I and others simply will not waste time and band-width on 4 or 5 GB games. Especially games that seem to require a new "upgrade" download every other week.

And no, if it is done right, the average gamer won't see the difference on a normal monitor.

/rant over. Off my soapbox.
Last edited by JFR on Sat, 18Jan06 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Mortze » Sat, 18Jan06 00:46

JFR wrote:/rant over. Off my soapbox.

Is that a new "drops the mic" form I don't know? :)
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby tlaero » Sat, 18Jan06 00:47

The question isn't why SC is only 140M. The question is why everyone else needlessly makes you download minimally compressed images. It's nigh on impossible to see the difference between a jpeg at 70% quality and 100% quality, even side by side on a large monitor, but the 100% quality images are more than 5 times as large. I get really frustrated with games that don't do this simple, no tradeoffs, free thing and, as a result waste time and bandwidth.

Saving Chloe has 1766 images in it. When you download a game that's larger but only has a few hundred images, you should complain to its authors. I always do. (-:

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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Mortze » Sat, 18Jan06 01:00

tlaero wrote: It's nigh on impossible to see the difference between a jpeg at 70% quality and 100% quality, even side by side on a large monitor

Err.. You do see differences, but you have to really be looking for them, and in certain cases, must have an artistic or technical eye.
But for 1250X625 resolution pictures a 70% compression is something I can deal with in terms of product quality released.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby JFR » Sat, 18Jan06 01:11

tlaero wrote:... When you download a game that's larger but only has a few hundred images, you should complain to its authors. I always do. (-:

Me too. [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. <que sera, sera>
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby shiblaowi » Sat, 18Jan06 01:35

I've gotta admit that in the beginning, I wasn't really a fan of SC. I somehow managed to be perpetually late to a certain location, and thus miss out on the main storyline. (I usually prefer these games main story first, then branching stories for extra goodness later) But somehow I managed to reach that cafe in time and I'll be damned if you guys didn't nail it out of the park again (I think that's the expression.) Somehow everything fits together so well, and while it feels a little less like a game then the others, the new approach to points and game overs really helps the story along.

I'm always sad to see a great story end, and this dip into the elsa-verse is nothing if not a great story, but I hope you've had as much enjoyment out of making these games as I've had playing them, and that you guys will keep making them far into the future. Thank you both for your work on these four great games, and I wish you the best of luck on the next four.

Also:
Are Mirandas and Morlands powers as similar as I'm stuck believing they are? I've always imagined her powers somewhat like Robert Downey Jrs ability in the newest Sherlock Holmes movies, but if that's what Morland does .... errm...confusion I guess.


Also also:
Where is the picture of the fjord over Pauls bed from? I know I've seen it somewhere before but I can't for the life of me remember where it is.

Also also also:
Just.... damn.
Last edited by shiblaowi on Sat, 18Jan06 01:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Nightshade09 » Sat, 18Jan06 01:36

Brocho wrote:Tlaero, I'm curious whether you ever considered a game with Xara as the title character? If you hadn't had Lucas agree to help her with her social skills, then it might have been interesting to have a new character do it and make a game out of it.


M and T left open a major possibility for just that. In my opinion.

I don't want to spoil it for those that have yet to play.

BUT

Go back to lowest room of the dungeon. An have Chloe explain the device to you again. Pay attention to who built it and who maintains it.

Then latter when Xara Departs with her pray.

She's going back to the wrong people. Into the very lions den sort of speak.

VERY strong chance Morland and Crow escaped Jusitce and could be coming back. And we'll be seeing Xara again soon.

ALSO

What is this falling darkness eluded to in the closing credits that's coming to the Else verse. :)
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby tlaero » Sat, 18Jan06 05:27

I very briefly considered doing a game with Xara as the player character. Yes, a 1st person graphical game where the main character is blind... I must have had a high fever at the time or something.

As for the comparison of powers by people whose names start with "M":
Miranda's and Morland's powers are quite different. Miranda sees the solution to problems. Morland sees the future.

Say that Miranda is driving and lighting strikes a tree and drops it in the road in front of her. She swerves and her tire blows out. She gets out, jacks up the car, removes the 4 lug nuts, and puts them in the hubcap. Then, as she's getting the spare out of the trunk, a freak wind blows the hubcap and the lug nuts into a nearby gorge. At this point, Miranda has a problem. How does she put on the spare when she's missing 4 lug nuts? She would immediately see the solution. Take one from each of the other wheels. Now all 4 tires have 3 lug nuts.

Morland on the other hand, would have been driving, saw that the lighting was going to strike and cause a blowout, and just step on the gas to be past the tree before it got hit.

On the other hand, say Morland found himself in Miranda's situation. (Maybe he was asleep in back when someone else was driving.) His power wouldn't really help him find a solution. He'd be thinking "what if I tried this?" and seeing that it wouldn't work, but nothing in his power would give him the insight to remove a nut from the other tires.


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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Nightshade09 » Sat, 18Jan06 08:36

Xara is clearly based on a Spartan like warrior.

That whole Gym Scene with Paul at night on a secondary path. Was sizzling hot!

Even with her non existent social interaction skills and with her Spartan like warrior training. Her soft femininity shines through time to time and does make you wonder if maybe she doesn't want to be this great warrior at all. Her 'beef' with Morland and Crow is personal more then its 'Duty'.

I second what others have said here. One day some day she deserves her own story. Very intriguing character.

Some have complained about one of Xara's endings in a secondary path. That they don't see the character ending up there. Life in a sweet and romantic ending.

I actually do see her ending up there. I think its what she's wanted all along. But she doesn't know how to obtain it given how she was raised to be.

That's her “Taboo Fantasy”

What would a warrior like Ancient Spartan warriors secret fantasy be? Why maybe a peaceful life as farmer with family.

Xara's would be along those lines too I think.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby BloodyMares » Sat, 18Jan06 11:09

tlaero wrote:As for the comparison of powers by people whose names start with "M":

Also, doesn't he have a power of persuasion? At one point Chloe says that he can say just the right thing and mess with your head to make you open to his suggestions. Or is it not the power but rather a skill? He didn't really strike me as charismatic.

Nightshade09 wrote:That whole Gym Scene with Paul at night on a secondary path. Was sizzling hot!

Even with her non existent social interaction skills and with her Spartan like warrior training. Her soft femininity shines through time to time and does make you wonder if maybe she doesn't want to be this great warrior at all. Her 'beef' with Morland and Crow is personal more then its 'Duty'.

Amen.

Also:
It looks like her warrior training made her a bit submissive. Certainly masochistic. She thinks of rough treatment of her as sort of a training. But she not only can handle it, she also loves it so much that she asks...or rather demands for it and it gets her off. That got me thinking, that maybe it's not just the physical pain that she enjoys, maybe she secretly wants to feel someone else to be in control (a good person obviously) given that she spent so much time being disciplined and learning to obey orders. Is it just me? Although not every soldier is submissive...so I might be wrong.
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