Saving Chloe (en, es)

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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Crane » Sat, 18Jan13 07:42

ShadyGroves wrote:
Well that's kind of why I don't like the cannon path Xara. She unquestionably follows orders without questioning those orders or those that give her those orders.


You're judging a wolf for his own nature. Don't you find that very subjective?

ShadyGroves wrote:Morland gave her orders to go after and get Morphus. She did. Without thinking or investigating if Morphus' grievances were just. If she had she might have realized that Morland was double crossing the very people Xara swore to protect as Royal Guard. She eludes to this mistake in one of non cannon paths btw.


No, she eludes to neglect HOW Troy's wound was healed in "a second". She eludes that she should have noticed that and used that information to heal herself faster.

ShadyGroves wrote:When have we in human history heard the excuse. “I was only carrying out my orders as a solider.” We heard it in the 1940s and 1950s the Nuremberg Crimes Against Humanity Trial” following WWII.

Since then every Soldiers Oath includes the like that Conscience should superseded a direct order in certain situations.


Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit. Xara, as far as we know, has killed no one except for her enemies in the battlefield. Is a policeman guilty if he arrests a "wanted man" if the guy is innocent?

ShadyGroves wrote:Then there is fact that basically her training in the other realm was tantamount to torture. Then she basically has sword thrust through her and her eyes ripped out. And all her commanding officer thinks about (not the care of the solider btw which every good Commander does) is inflicting more torture (the dream implant) upon her for her failure take down Morland after she's wounded?!?

Basically Xara's home is a hell hole of cruelty and what the heck is she still fighting for it?


You`re jugding an alien universe, of which we know almost nothing, on our universe's moral grounds. And you make it like it's Xara's fault, or at least Xara's responsability to change that.

ShadyGroves wrote:She's been on Earth among Earthlings for a year maybe more. She's seen loving and caring relationships right before her. Surely after a year of seeing how other civilizations live. She'd be questioning her peoples ways?

Instead in the cannon path we get a Xara that's basically a Terminator. A single minded machine that will carry out her orders. An if any of Xara's Angels falls .. Oh well that's just collateral damage.

Without giving away too much. .. for those that haven't played it yet.

But Miranda had very good reason to yell at her in the gym.
Elsa had a very good reason to distrust her.

For indeed Xara canon path considered them as expendable. In her single minded determined effort to bring back Morland. Nor was Xara willing to fill them in on what they were really up against.

The cannon Xara.. lets face it is pretty darn dangerous and dark to her men (Xara's Angels.)

An her civilization. Basically one of cruelty, feudalism Roman like. With the Royal Guard once concerned for one thing obeying the Monarch/Emperor without question. To maintain the status quo. Or else our Dream Masters will punish you for the rest of your life.


Maybe i'' wrong but i think you're being a little too harsh on Xara and maybe on her Realm too, since we know a bunch of nothing about them.
But lets assume they are how you described them. We know that in our universe time flows faster than in their Realm. So, if our civilization is living in Globalism times, their civilisation is still thriving through "Roman Empire civil wars and internal turmoils" times. Considering our Medieval and Modern history, i don't think we're in position to look down on them, are we?

About Xara not feeling attached to Angels. She's raised to love and trust no one but her Commander and she's been betrayed by him. And now you want her to trust and love someone she barely know and doesn`t even understand? I would say her actual reaction is very... human.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby ShadyGroves » Sat, 18Jan13 11:07

Harsh on Xara? No I'm being harsh on the culture and society she was raised in. For it seems to be absolutely devoid of tenderness, compassion, or sympathy. Why their idea of foreplay seems to be combat to the death. :)

Even with that detriment though which Xara suffers. Her femininity is still there screaming to get out. For she asked Lucas to teacher the graces of social interaction, tenderness when she caresses Tora the cat, her very cute choice of sleeping ware, and her ability to feel complex deep emotions for she can smile. In Xara culture though these would appear to be weaknesses.

Why in Xara's realm apparently. A child never felt the hug of a parent or love for that matter. Because by the age of three they're already into hardcore combat training..

That's pretty sad if you ask me. An sadder still that she returns to such a place after experiencing the opposite on Earth.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby constantine » Sat, 18Jan13 14:01

I enjoyed the game and liked discovering all the various paths and endings. I was wondering though about Xara's ending, and hopefully Tlaero (or anyone else who might know) can clear it up for me. Why do Paul and Xara open an outdoor retreat? I'm wondering why instead they don't open a self-defense school for women since Paul already helps abused women (as a lawyer), and Xara already teaches martial arts. I thought it would be sensible to combine both their interests and skills to do something that could help other women. I'm just not sure where operating a outdoor retreat fits into Paul and Xara's background or interests. Like, how come Paul would give up a profession where he helps abused women (which he seems passionate about) to go into the leisure business? It just didn't fit my perception of his character or of Xara.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Tao Dude » Sat, 18Jan13 17:41

constantine wrote:I enjoyed the game and liked discovering all the various paths and endings. I was wondering though about Xara's ending, and hopefully Tlaero (or anyone else who might know) can clear it up for me. Why do Paul and Xara open an outdoor retreat? I'm wondering why instead they don't open a self-defense school for women since Paul already helps abused women (as a lawyer), and Xara already teaches martial arts. I thought it would be sensible to combine both their interests and skills to do something that could help other women. I'm just not sure where operating a outdoor retreat fits into Paul and Xara's background or interests. Like, how come Paul would give up a profession where he helps abused women (which he seems passionate about) to go into the leisure business? It just didn't fit my perception of his character or of Xara.

This is the first game where Tlaero has deviated significantly from the visual novel style of storytelling and allowed the player to make choices about how Paul behaves. The ending you describe does not happen on the canon path, so it must be one of the other paths where the player directs that Paul is not true to himself (or perhaps Chloe), ergo he behaves outside what we expect (or at least what the game expects) from his character.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby JFR » Sat, 18Jan13 18:23

Tao Dude wrote:... The ending you describe does not happen on the canon path, so it must be one of the other paths where the player directs that Paul is not true to himself (or perhaps Chloe), ergo he behaves outside what we expect (or at least what the game expects) from his character.

This is key. The alternate path you found is one in which Morland actually "wins." Paul and Xara "escaped" and relocated completely to another country to avoid what is happening in the old place under Morland's influence. Although not really mentioned, there is also an element of hiding out in plain sight. Sort of like a "witness protection program." They are building a life away from all that is wrong back there and avoiding their old careers may be a way of hiding from retribution.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby ShadyGroves » Sat, 18Jan13 19:05

I would assume since it is an alternative ending. A sort of a happy ending with both heading off into the Sunset sort of speak. That both give up their former lives of pain. Paul only became a lawyer to help battered women because of the experience he had with Chloe and her abusive Father. Xara was only a Warrior because she was a Royal Guard and her life was going after Morland. So they gave up both of their former lives entirely and began a third. Them together.


constantine wrote:I enjoyed the game and liked discovering all the various paths and endings. I was wondering though about Xara's ending, and hopefully Tlaero (or anyone else who might know) can clear it up for me. Why do Paul and Xara open an outdoor retreat? I'm wondering why instead they don't open a self-defense school for women since Paul already helps abused women (as a lawyer), and Xara already teaches martial arts. I thought it would be sensible to combine both their interests and skills to do something that could help other women. I'm just not sure where operating a outdoor retreat fits into Paul and Xara's background or interests. Like, how come Paul would give up a profession where he helps abused women (which he seems passionate about) to go into the leisure business? It just didn't fit my perception of his character or of Xara.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby ShadyGroves » Sat, 18Jan13 19:25

What I find interesting in the game.

Xara's cane with its distinctive handle. Is the cane a symbol of a Royal Guard? Because Crow has one too! Crow Royal Guard gone bad? :)

Then another interesting tid bit that jumps out at you.

Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels. Xara intercedes and says where she comes from their are both male and female angels. Then Miranda intercedes saying of Xara. She (Xara) literally believes we are talking about real angels. Apparently that's why Xara doesn't like Jan playfully calling them angels.

Could this little dialogue exchange be a clue to Xara's real form and her realm. It's interesting in light of what we learn in the mini story DwE Royal Guard. What is Xara fighting in the streets but real Demons? :)

Then we have angel and bird wing tattoos through out the game. Clue? :)
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby JFR » Sat, 18Jan13 20:20

ShadyGroves wrote:... Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels. Xara intercedes and says where she comes from their are both male and female angels. Then Miranda intercedes saying of Xara. She (Xara) literally believes we are talking about real angels. ...

I think this is just a humorous reference to the team of attractive "crime fighters" by comparing them to "Charlie's Angels," the movie and tv series. The earthly humans of the team get it, as does Jan, who coined the term. Since she is new to this world AND presumably does not watch tv, the reference flies right over Xara's head, thus her confusion. Just Tlaero making a little joke.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby moskys » Sat, 18Jan13 20:41

JFR wrote:
ShadyGroves wrote:... Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels. Xara intercedes and says where she comes from their are both male and female angels. Then Miranda intercedes saying of Xara. She (Xara) literally believes we are talking about real angels. ...

I think this is just a humorous reference to the team of attractive "crime fighters" by comparing them to "Charlie's Angels," the movie and tv series. The earthly humans of the team get it, as does Jan, who coined the term. Since she is new to this world AND presumably does not watch tv, the reference flies right over Xara's head, thus her confusion. Just Tlaero making a little joke.


Jan's and Miranda's words are obviously referred to Charlie's Angels, but I agree with Shady that there could be something hidden in Xara's words. There must be real angels of different genres in her world, although that doesn't necessarily mean that she's one of them. Also, I noticed Crow's odd response before fighting Xara. Xara says it's an irony that Crow granted her immunity from her visual trickery, and that's true. But then Crow sees some irony on Xara instructing 'those children to do your job for you'. Where's the irony there? Sure Chloe and Paul are a lot younger than them (and human too, a condition in which everyone from Xara's realm may find an extreme weakness) but I feel there must be a story hidden behind these words.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby tlaero » Sat, 18Jan13 20:54

Welcome to the lagoon, Constantine.

There are a couple of things going on with Xara's Outdoor Adventures, many of which have been said by others here.

In these paths, Paul and Xara are moving on with their lives. Paul has been helping battered women because he's a great guy, but also because he's felt guilty for leaving Chloe in High School. At this point, he's finally gotten over that and is ready to make a new life for himself. Xara hasn't known anything but conflict her entire life and is trying to forge a new path. Her throwing away her sword cane is really symbolic. Of course, there's a lot of room for "falling back to old ways" in their outdoor adventure company. Yeah, maybe most of the time they'll book anyone, but imagine special week-long retreats where they take a group of abused people and get them out into nature, help them find self-confidence, and maybe teach them how to disable an abusive boyfriend along the way...

All that said, the Outdoor Adventures images were Mortze's idea, and I'm pretty sure he did them for me because I'm a rock climber. (-:

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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby ShadyGroves » Sat, 18Jan13 22:51

Is it just me or does Chloe's and Miranda's friendship go beyond mere best friends. :) The bond seems intense and their falling outs are tantamount to romantic relationship break ups.

Perhaps Saving Chloe should have ended up with Miranda and Chloe heading off into the sunset happily ever after instead of Paul.

Just saying. :)
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Tao Dude » Sun, 18Jan14 00:58

ShadyGroves wrote:What I find interesting in the game.

Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels.

Really weird comment actually, taking the assumption that Paul is a: American and b: Christian.

There are at least three male [arch]angels in Christian mythology: Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer. Lucifer [the bringer of light (of understanding, i.e. knowledge)] is of course better known as Satan, who grew later horns as a way to demonise the Pagan God, Pan.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby BloodyMares » Sun, 18Jan14 01:12

Tao Dude wrote:
ShadyGroves wrote:What I find interesting in the game.

Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels.

Really weird comment actually, taking the assumption that Paul is a: American and b: Christian.

There are at least three male [arch]angels in Christian mythology: Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer. Lucifer [the bringer of light (of understanding, i.e. knowledge)] is of course better known as Satan, who grew later horns as a way to demonise the Pagan God, Pan.

You're just like Xara :D No need to bring religion into this.
Paul was talking specifically about "Xara's Angels" (a reference to a film "Charlie's Angels") which is the group of hot and badass girls doing missions for their 'boss'. That is why Paul asks if it's appropriate for him to be called an "angel" since he's not a hot girl. Xara doesn't get the joke/reference and Miranda makes fun of it.
Last edited by BloodyMares on Sun, 18Jan14 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby Tao Dude » Sun, 18Jan14 01:15

BloodyMares wrote:
Tao Dude wrote:
ShadyGroves wrote:What I find interesting in the game.

Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels.

Really weird comment actually, taking the assumption that Paul is a: American and b: Christian.

There are at least three male [arch]angels in Christian mythology: Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer. Lucifer [the bringer of light (of understanding, i.e. knowledge)] is of course better known as Satan, who grew later horns as a way to demonise the Pagan God, Pan.

You're just like Xara :D No need to bring religion into this.
Paul was talking specifically about "Xara's Angels" (a reference to a film "Charlie's Angels") which is the group of hot and badass girls doing missions for their 'boss'. That is why Paul asks if it's appropriate for him to be called an "angel" since he's not a hot girl. Xara doesn't get the joke and Miranda makes fun of it.

Film?!?

I'm old enough to remember the TV series that made Farah Fawcett famous, even here in the UK :). I preferred the dark haired girl who played Sabrina Duncan though, played by the lovely Kate Jackson.
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Re: Saving Chloe

Postby ShadyGroves » Sun, 18Jan14 04:50

Tao Dude wrote:
ShadyGroves wrote:What I find interesting in the game.

Paul meeting Xara's Angels in the gym. Paul makes mention along the lines of can a male be an angels.

Really weird comment actually, taking the assumption that Paul is a: American and b: Christian.

There are at least three male [arch]angels in Christian mythology: Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer. Lucifer [the bringer of light (of understanding, i.e. knowledge)] is of course better known as Satan, who grew later horns as a way to demonise the Pagan God, Pan.


Well as former hard core Catholic that actually started to tutor for seminary in high school.

The angel lore states that angels are both male and female within the same body. Just like God.

This is found in the mysterious passage in the bible just before Garden of Eden.

Genesis 1:27
The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
…26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."…

So whose it (God) talking to? He's talking to the Angels which were created in primordial existence. Since God is one being. It's stating something of its nature as well. It has a male aspect and well as female aspect. As do the angels themselves for they too were made in Its Image.

The medieval theologians not knowing better often depicted angels in iconography as hermaphroditic. They assumed currently for that time period Angels had to be such in order to be both.

Now we know better our thought has expanded due to such things as Science Fiction and alike.

Now God and the angels are non coporal (non physical) entity That has both female and male aspects to its nature.

An today we depict angels (for the most part) as

Androgyny is the combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. Usually used to describe characters or persons which have no specific gender, gender ambiguity may also be found in fashion, gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual lifestyle.

So when an Angel appears they can appear like that mysterious passer by that stops at your auto crash sight to give you strength and courage to hold on until EMT's arrive and he's never seen again. Or that nurse that comes into your hospital room to give you comfort before going into major surgury. And then afterwards when you ask the staff who was that nurse on the floor at that late hour? They don't know.

Examples of Phenomena that millions of people world wide report to this day.

Likewise on the flip side Lucifer (now known as Satan; he was named such after he was Cast out of the Heavenly realm at the First War in Heaven before Creation of man. Angel Lore tells us that Lucifer was “THE MOST Beautiful Angel” God created. Indeed God wept at his creation, and was Gods most beloved of the heavenly hosts. Then Lucifer turned on him. Gaberial was one to finally beat him in War and Michael was put in charge of casting him and his legion out of paradise and keeping him from ever returning.

One / Third of the angels sided with Lucifer and were cast down with him. They were not cast into Hell. But cast down on the Earth (among us) before they were. They were stripped of physical form (so they could do us no harm) and exist as non corporal entities. The only thing they can do to us is influence us to turn our backs on God and what he commands of us. In doing so they keep us from ever reaching the Paradise they were cast out of.

Lucifer has one single burning obsessive goal. An that's destroying your chance of ever reaching that Paradise. Eternal HATRED of Mankind for God so loved us that he gave us his only son in hopes of saving us and giving a ticket into Paradise.

He can appear to you as Hot new slutty office assistant that makes you cheat on your wife and otherly destroy her trust in another man as well corrupt you. Two birds with one stone. Likewise he can appear as that HOT Studly new new personal assistant at the gym to go after that Wife.

A frightening well done depiction of Lucifer from the 1990s movie the Prophecy. (very square with theology)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjq09PRgHOA

Makes Morland seem like a chump! LOL

Not saying I believe it.. Just reporting the theology of what we were taught as Catholics.
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