Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Complete and totally free games (the author can request a non-obligatory financial contribution in thanks or to help him to create new game)

Re: Finding Miranda

Postby ares » Tue, 16Dec13 09:43

My 2 cents (maybe more than 2)
So, I am not going to dwelve into the things that we know to expect from a collaboration of you two. Suffice to say that those things, I’d say amount for about 80% of what makes a game enjoyable, which is why I think you should be supported in P. To merely enumerate them, here we have again the usual i) bug-free game, ii) excellent visuals, iii) good prose with next to no typos iv) hot sex scenes and last but not least v) non trivial story. The fact that you not only keep to those standards but, I think improve on the formula on this game is I believe excellent news.

As for the rest. I think the story deserves a particular mention. The two previous games in this series hinted that there was more going on in this universe but not a lot was clear so they still felt like a traditional dating sim. This is the first tlaero game that, to me, feels more like a continuation of a bigger story that happens to have sexual scenes. Interestingly, tlaero herself has said repeatedly in this forum that ultimately, her games are about how to get the girl. I had thought from before that this point of view was quite narrow, that “dating sims” such as these could be produced with the main objective being to tell an overarching story. I think this game proves that and for me that makes it all the more enjoyable.

The innovation of this game, switching the goal to staying in character instead of hitting the right options with the girl I think works greatly. Kudos to including a number of dates to match the number of possible choices so that one could see all the content in the four separate playthroughs necessary. Also kudos to spreading pieces of the story across the 4 dates, so that you really were seeing meaningful content in each different date.

One thing that has nothing to do with the game but I’ll say nonetheless, is that I think the code has become much cleaner and more efficient. Since I cheat shamelessly in these games, I appreciate that everything has become much easier for me :).

As for the things that I dislike or that I find dissonant, I will just mention the most important one. TL,DR: Finding Miranda does not pass the Inverse Bechdel Test.

Chaotic already made this point but I may expand on it a little, also because it gives rise to a more general comment. The character of Miranda feels utterly unrealistic. And no, it is not justified by the fact that Miranda hasn’t slept for 6 months, if I recall correctly. As a matter of fact, we are introduced to Miranda as she, seemingly looking at a segment of code for the first time, comes up in a few minutes with a “new class of hacker attack” that “seems obvious” to her. Just this is already unrealistic. People did not started coding yesterday and all the “obvious” things are known. We are left to conclude by this line that Miranda is set apart as easily the greatest programmer on Earth.

But of course, during the course of the game we learn that Miranda not only is the greatest programmer on Earth but also is proficient in a number of skills. Chaotic list is incomplete. Miranda is a painter, repairs bikes, plays basketball at a level in which she can play evenly with men, a martial artist AND she knits her own clothes. But wait, cause we are not done. When a trio of Japanese girls is introduced, Miranda salutes in Japanese. It is not clear in game if she knows more than a simple 'Hi', but with her background, the player, or at least I, assumed she does. And by that time in the game in which it is necessary to pick a lock, we already know what is going to happen. Sure enough, Miranda steps forward because of course she knows how to pick the lock!

All of this gives the impression that whenever a problem is presented in the story to the main characters, the solution the author will provide is ‘to bestow a new skill on Miranda’. If say, there had been at some point the need to fly a helicopter, I would certainly have expected that Miranda would have known how to do it. The game is actually even self conscious about this: when Miranda asks “do you know what I am good at:”, the PC answers: “Everything as far as I can tell”. Ha! Indeed. And that is of course a choice of the author. But I personally, am not that interested in superhero/heroine stories.

This is not the first tlaero game in which the heroine feels somewhat overpowered. Keisha, Christine and Jessika have all had the same issue although this one is maybe the most extreme one. The general comment I wanted to make is that without pretending to get into her head, this seems to come from a pursuit of showing women in strong roles. Ultimately I think that this intetion fails because, in my opinion, the character ends up being so ridiculously strong that it’s just unbelievable. This is of course a gender neutral statement, the character would be equally unbelievable if it was a dude.

From a subjective point of view, as it has happened also in other games, male characters feel subpar. This game is not that bad, I liked the character of Ismael, for instance. The PC however for me falls flat in most of the dialogue (to be fair, not as much as the PC in Jessika). The other male characters of some relevance are the ubervillain and the groping dude. On the other hand, on the female side we have a set of 4 super heroines, either relevant to the story or appearing in it, if we include Xara, 3 bikers that all 3 of them best the PC at his only not-coding skill, and the somewhat redeemed Chloe (we can not know which story is canon regarding the PC’s wife). Well, again, worlds inhabited by interesting, strong women are perfect by me. This world however is in my opinion imbalanced.

I am not the author. If I were the author, I would have relieved this imbalance by doing very simple things. For instance, Xara could perfectly be a man, since the only moment in which her femaleness is important is for the PC to check his ass at the end. Unless in this story, it turns to be ultimately a requirement that only women can have superpowers, I don’t see why Xara could not have been a blind guy. And leave the dialogue exactly as is, including the charming bonding between her and the PC at the end.

To conclude with a very clear point. There is this thing called the Bechdel Test, which is designed to spot sexism or ascertain whether women have a meaningful presence in works of fiction. It asks whether a movie or any fiction has:

1.- At least two women on it…
2.- Who talk to teach other…
3.- About something other than men

Finding Miranda passes easily the Bechdel Test. Off the top of my mind, there is Miranda - Xara, Miranda - Chloe, Miranda - Elsa…. and that is great. However I don’t think it’s great that if I recall correctly, it does not pass the the male analogue of the Bechdel Test.

To finish with one good thing, the most interesting character for me in all this series is Chloe. She is the gray one, the one that is broken, and the one that can do good and also can do bad. And I certainly hope we keep seeing her in the future. But I think tlaero has done an excellent job writing and fleshing out that character specifically.

PS: For a world I think it’s well done, inhabited by strong women yet not superheroines, and most of which I would like to date, see A Song of Ice and Fire.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby artorawley » Tue, 16Dec13 11:04

JFR wrote:
artorawley wrote:...
This still seems like an odd way of going about things. Their page doesn't say anything like "Only those that support us for X amount of months get perks", so why do this? Will people that wanted to support them for the long-haul really up and cancel their pledges and then vow to never pledge again because they felt their pledges were "devalued"? I guess if they're an asshole, sure, but I think most, if not all, of the people that believe in the "I'm funding this development and my support counts and so I will continue to pledge because I'm making a difference" line of thinking will do so regardless of the perk delivery system. Meanwhile you have people that go "Oh, I didn't know this was coming out already, I would like to pledge and support you so I can play your latest work because I know it'll be good" and they get in return "No, you didn't support us long enough and so your money now doesn't mean as much as others' money". It's just a really weird way to go about things when people would like to give you money and support you but you rebuke them because they didn't do so a certain way that apparently has been deemed "the right way" despite the casual and/or outsider audience not being aware of this.

Don't take this the wrong way - or maybe DO take it that way, I don't care - but that is one of the most mercenary comments I think I have seen here.

Remember, I said that was my opinion, not that of the creators. I don't speak for them. I just gave my opinion. I have no idea where they come down on this but I can say that they take care of their loyal patrons better than any other creatives I have seen or supported.

As for your comment about "perks are not for new guys," that is just BS. FYI, tlaero and Mortze make all of the monthly perks ever released available in one big download to any new patron as soon as the first payment clears. Few others do that and most do not create entirely new story content just to have something neat to offer their patrons like t & M do. They offer their games free to everyone so the idea that someone's "money doesn't mean as much" as someone else's is just ludicrous. Nobody's money is buying content. The loyal patrons are not getting anything a newcomer won't get. We just just get a little head start. That simply does not constitute "rebuke" in any way shape or form. Sheesh!


I don't know if you're being facetious or not, but your first response was almost word-for-word the same response Mortze gave me on their page when I asked the same question.

Also, you say "Nobody's money is buying content" but that is exactly what's going on here. Those that have subbed prior to December 1st have effectively paid for this content, and those that would like to pay now are not allowed to for nebulous reasons. The Site That Shall Not Be Named offers options to take payment upon subscription, on a monthly rate, or whenever a project release is made, so why didn't they just set their payment model to charge upon subscription if they were going to lock out new supporters in this arbitrary way? I mean, a game release is a big deal and the game is rightfully getting the attention it deserves, you have to know that with advertisements/recognition/word-of-mouth will come (potentially) new subscribers, so why stick it to them in this weird way?

Also, why are you being so combative about this? People want to support the same creators that you do, why are you acting like your secret club or status is being compromised?
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby Dasati » Tue, 16Dec13 12:19

ares wrote:My 2 cents (maybe more than 2)
So, I am not going to dwelve into the things that we know to expect from a collaboration of you two. Suffice to say that those things, I’d say amount for about 80% of what makes a game enjoyable, which is why I think you should be supported in P. To merely enumerate them, here we have again the usual i) bug-free game, ii) excellent visuals, iii) good prose with next to no typos iv) hot sex scenes and last but not least v) non trivial story. The fact that you not only keep to those standards but, I think improve on the formula on this game is I believe excellent news.

As for the rest. I think the story deserves a particular mention. The two previous games in this series hinted that there was more going on in this universe but not a lot was clear so they still felt like a traditional dating sim. This is the first tlaero game that, to me, feels more like a continuation of a bigger story that happens to have sexual scenes. Interestingly, tlaero herself has said repeatedly in this forum that ultimately, her games are about how to get the girl. I had thought from before that this point of view was quite narrow, that “dating sims” such as these could be produced with the main objective being to tell an overarching story. I think this game proves that and for me that makes it all the more enjoyable.

The innovation of this game, switching the goal to staying in character instead of hitting the right options with the girl I think works greatly. Kudos to including a number of dates to match the number of possible choices so that one could see all the content in the four separate playthroughs necessary. Also kudos to spreading pieces of the story across the 4 dates, so that you really were seeing meaningful content in each different date.

One thing that has nothing to do with the game but I’ll say nonetheless, is that I think the code has become much cleaner and more efficient. Since I cheat shamelessly in these games, I appreciate that everything has become much easier for me :).

As for the things that I dislike or that I find dissonant, I will just mention the most important one. TL,DR: Finding Miranda does not pass the Inverse Bechdel Test.

Chaotic already made this point but I may expand on it a little, also because it gives rise to a more general comment. The character of Miranda feels utterly unrealistic. And no, it is not justified by the fact that Miranda hasn’t slept for 6 months, if I recall correctly. As a matter of fact, we are introduced to Miranda as she, seemingly looking at a segment of code for the first time, comes up in a few minutes with a “new class of hacker attack” that “seems obvious” to her. Just this is already unrealistic. People did not started coding yesterday and all the “obvious” things are known. We are left to conclude by this line that Miranda is set apart as easily the greatest programmer on Earth.

But of course, during the course of the game we learn that Miranda not only is the greatest programmer on Earth but also is proficient in a number of skills. Chaotic list is incomplete. Miranda is a painter, repairs bikes, plays basketball at a level in which she can play evenly with men, a martial artist AND she knits her own clothes. But wait, cause we are not done. When a trio of Japanese girls is introduced, Miranda salutes in Japanese. It is not clear in game if she knows more than a simple 'Hi', but with her background, the player, or at least I, assumed she does. And by that time in the game in which it is necessary to pick a lock, we already know what is going to happen. Sure enough, Miranda steps forward because of course she knows how to pick the lock!

All of this gives the impression that whenever a problem is presented in the story to the main characters, the solution the author will provide is ‘to bestow a new skill on Miranda’. If say, there had been at some point the need to fly a helicopter, I would certainly have expected that Miranda would have known how to do it. The game is actually even self conscious about this: when Miranda asks “do you know what I am good at:”, the PC answers: “Everything as far as I can tell”. Ha! Indeed. And that is of course a choice of the author. But I personally, am not that interested in superhero/heroine stories.

This is not the first tlaero game in which the heroine feels somewhat overpowered. Keisha, Christine and Jessika have all had the same issue although this one is maybe the most extreme one. The general comment I wanted to make is that without pretending to get into her head, this seems to come from a pursuit of showing women in strong roles. Ultimately I think that this intetion fails because, in my opinion, the character ends up being so ridiculously strong that it’s just unbelievable. This is of course a gender neutral statement, the character would be equally unbelievable if it was a dude.

From a subjective point of view, as it has happened also in other games, male characters feel subpar. This game is not that bad, I liked the character of Ismael, for instance. The PC however for me falls flat in most of the dialogue (to be fair, not as much as the PC in Jessika). The other male characters of some relevance are the ubervillain and the groping dude. On the other hand, on the female side we have a set of 4 super heroines, either relevant to the story or appearing in it, if we include Xara, 3 bikers that all 3 of them best the PC at his only not-coding skill, and the somewhat redeemed Chloe (we can not know which story is canon regarding the PC’s wife). Well, again, worlds inhabited by interesting, strong women are perfect by me. This world however is in my opinion imbalanced.

I am not the author. If I were the author, I would have relieved this imbalance by doing very simple things. For instance, Xara could perfectly be a man, since the only moment in which her femaleness is important is for the PC to check his ass at the end. Unless in this story, it turns to be ultimately a requirement that only women can have superpowers, I don’t see why Xara could not have been a blind guy. And leave the dialogue exactly as is, including the charming bonding between her and the PC at the end.

To conclude with a very clear point. There is this thing called the Bechdel Test, which is designed to spot sexism or ascertain whether women have a meaningful presence in works of fiction. It asks whether a movie or any fiction has:

1.- At least two women on it…
2.- Who talk to teach other…
3.- About something other than men

Finding Miranda passes easily the Bechdel Test. Off the top of my mind, there is Miranda - Xara, Miranda - Chloe, Miranda - Elsa…. and that is great. However I don’t think it’s great that if I recall correctly, it does not pass the the male analogue of the Bechdel Test.

To finish with one good thing, the most interesting character for me in all this series is Chloe. She is the gray one, the one that is broken, and the one that can do good and also can do bad. And I certainly hope we keep seeing her in the future. But I think tlaero has done an excellent job writing and fleshing out that character specifically.

PS: For a world I think it’s well done, inhabited by strong women yet not superheroines, and most of which I would like to date, see A Song of Ice and Fire.


Just to respond a little from how I see it.

One thing I think you and Chaotic are overlooking is that Miranda is not a blank slate. I can't remember if we're told her exact age but I think its safe to assume she's at the very least in her mid/late 20's. We don't know which of her skills she acquired before the coma and which shes learned since. As evidenced in the ice skating date, Miranda is not amazing at everything. By the time they leave the rink she's still only decent at skating.

In regards to Miranda coming up with a new hacker attack. We don't actually know what her specific job is at the company but she's been there awhile. It's safe to say she'd have some familiarity with her co-workers coding style. Also as Tlaero has mentioned her power is solving problems, its not so far fetched that she'd find a weakness.

As to not passing the Inverse Bechdel Test that is in part our fault. If I recall correctly many people were not happy with playing a female character in Life with Keeley, which kind of ensures the player will always be male. As you pointed out, and Tlaero mentioned earlier we don't yet know why people in the area are getting powers. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that there's a "faction" kind of thing going on with Xara recruiting and leading the powered female's whilst the big bad leads the males. Though I do agree there seems to be a bit of a shortage of male supporting cast who are decent human beings/have a more substantial role than just a few lines or window dressing in a scene.

As to Miranda's wide repertoire of skills. The justification for it is that she doesn't sleep, and hasn't for I think she says a year. Whilst having so much free time its plausible that'd she pick up such a diverse range of skills. I forget exactly where I read it but I remember reading that if you read one book a week in your field you'll become an international expert in a year. For most people whats stopping that is a lack of time, therefore isn't it possible that Miranda with her inability to sleep would have the time in a year to pick up a lot of skills? From the way I understand it she's not an expert in every single one of her skills, there's also possibly a degree of manic focus to her nocturnal activities as she says to Lucas she does whatever she can to occupy herself.

Just something I found interesting, Miranda states she has a constant headache which varies in severity. I did a little googling and found that there really is a disease which stops people sleeping, its called Fatal Familial Insomnia. As the familial part suggests its hereditary whilst Miranda's insomnia is a result of a coma, but the effects of not sleeping due to FFI are a lot more debilitating than merely a constant headache. I realise it being a game it doesn't have to 100% conform to science though.

One critique I do partly agree with is the lack of build up to seeing Miranda naked, from a narrative view point it only really makes sense half of the time. For convenience lets say if you picked Karen dying is option A and her cheating is option B, further if that left Lucas timid that's option 1 or aggressive that's option 2. The lack of build up is logical with options A2 and B2. In those cases Lucas has been sleeping around and as stated early in the game both he and Miranda have been attracted to each other for awhile now so its reasonable that their first date after Lucas gets closure with Karen that they'd have sex. The lack of build up does not however make sense in options A1 and B1, in either case Lucas has not slept with anyone in months and yet on the very first date, mere days (I forget the specific amount of time) after getting closure he overcomes months of timidity to sleep with Miranda. In fairness a case could be made that the combo of their mutual long term attraction, Miranda's forceful personality and Lucas's simple biological need for a release meant they got caught up in the moment, but personally I think a little more build up in the latter two cases would of made more narrative sense. Though obviously would mean more work for Tlaero and Mortze and a longer wait for the game.

Apologies for the long post, kinda got going there.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby Fofunete » Tue, 16Dec13 13:37

It was not my intention to start any war around here. I support other authors on p***eon and i noticed that most of them are now taking advantage of the new option the site have
where new supporters can be billed on the same day they do the pledge and in return the author immediately gives access to all the content they've, and at the end of month and following
months that new supporter gets billed regularly like everyone else. Some authors may refute that some people could just allow the first bill, retrieve all content and then cancel, but
the same may happen to the others, they can just cancel after 1st month is billed. Like i said previously i was hoping to pledge at the end of this month, because i read the game was supposedly be released only at january or so, i don't come here often and don't have the time to check regularly what every single creator is doing and what specific dates they're releasing their stuff, It's just a bit frustrating wanting to support and now being put in a corner like everybody else (and probably most of them for various reasons have no intention to support them at all) and need to wait to play the new game, it's just that.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby Mortze » Tue, 16Dec13 14:15

Fellow lagooners, thanks to all that have already played FM and taken time to post your thoughts about. Your opinions matter a great deal to us. You might have already noticed that there have been some changes in FM, compared to DwE and RfJ, because you guys took time to advise us on how to improve our games. Thank you again.

I'll give my opinion on 2 subjects, the first related to a discussion in this thread regarding our policy of new pledgers at Pat, and the second related to some criticism about the game. I'll spoiler the second.

There has been some discontentment of our policy to release the game to former continous patrons and not to newcomers. JFR has states HIS opinion on this but I feel that I must clarify my, and only mine, point of view. I appologise to the moderators if they feel that this part isn't topic related. I understand that it isn't but I have to explain my point of view if a question is raised here. I'll be glad to expand my reasoning in a more appropriate thread.

It is simple, our games aren't for selling. You may argue whatever you want but our games are free to play. Dreaming with Elsa, Redemption for Jessika, Pandora Part I, all are free to play and download, either at my site or at others around the web. It's the same for Tlaero's previous games. But I got to make a living out of it somehow, and P.A.T.R.E.O.N. (Pat) provides an interesting opportunity that reminds us the old times.
Let's imagine a parabole here, and since it is a parabole I hope nobody will get offended. This isn't patronizing anyone either.
We are in Interneti, an italian city-state in the 16th century and Mortzeli is a poor artist. He has nothing but skill to make nice statues. Certainly, the people at Interneti would love to see Mortzeli's statues in their city and it would enhance Interneti's statute in Italy. But, since he is poor, he has to do other stuff to earn his food. So, the rich and bored nobles and bourgeoisie decide to help Mortzeli and start financing him his food, his drink, his bed and clothes, his hammers and chisels, the marble, the atelier, and Mortzeli starts dedicating his time only to produce statues. When done, the statues are put around Interneti for everyone to see. But right before that, Mortzeli decides to throw a reception for his patrons so they could apreciate, and, most importantly, opinate, on Mortzeli's work. Some people try to crash the reception and even offer Mortzeli some gold to get a look at the statue before everyone else in the city but Mortzeli declines, saying that this is a reception of apreciation for his patrons. He says that he'd gadly accept new patrons but these ones, inside his atelier, do deserve some special apreciation. There are some discontentment but Mortzeli tells them that should they support him they will enter his atelier next time he produces another statue. If they do not want then Mortzeli would be as happy since they will apreciate his work freely at the town square.
This parabole isn't made up. Patronage has existed for a long time in our history. It had several purposes:
- to allow skilled art to not fall in oblivion because its creators were too poor;
- to promote, less altruistically, the patron seen as a philantropist;
- to promote the city, or institution, in times were art was seen as a sign of wealth;
- and, not least importantly, for the patron to feel somehow, part of the creation process. To have a relation with the art created.
The first and the last point are important in my policy at Pat.
So, are the newcomer's money less important that old patrons? Money is money, but the patronage system isn't only about that as I've explained. It's about a relationship between the creator and the patrons. Would I release the game indiscriminately to newcomers then that relationship would loose meaning. Most patrons at Mortzeli's might not care that he let people enter his atelier in exchange for a gold piece. But one or two patrons might. And Mortzeli wouldn't want that.
Mortzeli know that some of th newcomers will pay the gold piece, see the statue, and abandon him until he finishes another statue financied by his loyal patrons. And allowing that seems wrong to me.
It is unfortunate that someone that pledged for the first time the 31th November should get the perk ealier than someone that pledged the 1st December, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
I'm sorry people feel that they receive unfair treatment. But I will confess, without shame, that I would feel even more sorry if my patrons felt that way.
I hope this clarifies my line of thought. If anyone wants to discuss this further I'd be glad to do it in a proper thread or in PM. I would prefer the former to have public insight on the subject.

Now regarding the comments on FM, mostly done by Chaotic and ares (which I heartldy thank for the long and great review). I'll spoiler this.

Miranda does seem to know it all. But let's look at it with another angle. Her power is “she solves problems”. That means she kicks ass at puzzles. Someone that would find instant solutions to problems would be a master at computer coding and mechanics right (or playing baccarat)? Maybe even amongst the best on the planet. That's her power, like Elsa could influence dreams and Jessika influence minds and emotions; both huge powers too. I don't think Miranda has greater powers than Elsa or Jessika. The difference is that Miranda doesn't sleep. So she learned other stuff during the time other people sleep. How to sew clothes, play the violin, the piano, paint. She isn't known as a super artist or musician and she doens't have a line of fashion clothes. It's just stuff she does, without excel at it, because she had time to learn and practice it. Does she speak japanese? Well, as much as I, Mortze do, since I share an admiration for japanese culture like Miranda (who hs a katana and a wakizashi at home). I don't think that she excels at mandarin or russian for instance. She can ride a bike, yes, but so does Lucas. The difference is that she's into this mental state where she doens't care much for her life and that allows her more reckless driving. And xara teached her martial arts. She isn't a Bruce Lee. She is only better than Lucas at it. Again, would Lucas had sleepless times he would be skillfull at many things. Hell, would I not need to sleep and there would be much more Tlaero and Mortze games now! But Miranda has soft parts too, as pointed out by Dasati. She is clumsy at ice-skating. Would she go skate every 2 nights per week for 6 months and she'd be excelent at it, as anyone else. She isn't special in a way that she has more potential than others (save the sloving thins power). She just has more time. Plus, she is deeply disturbed. By her story with Chloe, and by the coma, adding the fact that she can't sleep. It's clear that she can't perceive the world normally. Plus the headaches, and a deep intimate sadness. She surely is flawed.
But it's true that, considered all this, Miranda is a special girl, since she has more skills than most. But hey, these games are about special girls. Try to imagine what Elsa and Jessika could do around the world would they put their mind into it. One or the other could basically rule the world.

It is also true that females are predominant in these games. I'm super glad that is! I do preffer rendering sexy girls than men. That's why Xara is a sexy girl and not a man. Royal Guard wouldn't be so much fun to render (and maybe read) if Xara was a dude! And Xara being a sexy girl opens oportunities for sexy moments up ahead (I wish).
We tried really hard to listen to your feedback from RfJ and put some stronger characterization into Lucas. And I do feel that Ismael is a great addition to Luca's character. Not only do they talk about women, but Ismael is supporting Lucas regarding his life choices. He is a friend, and I think it shows. Not only the secondary character that talks about the female protagonist saying how hot she is and that the player should hit her. Doesn't Ismael have a cousin? Wasn't she introduced in the narrative?
And let's not forget that the vilain is a man. A powerful one.
So I don't agree that male representation are subpar. The player's character, Ismael, Vince, and Morland are important in the story, as is Xara, Elsa and Jessika. The only difference is that this is a simple game, in the end, with the purpose of presenting sexy girls to mostly male players.


Latly, I'm very glad with ares's statement about Chloe. She is special for me.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby GingkoBiloba » Tue, 16Dec13 16:17

It's a pity to see this game is already widely available on file sharing sites, using your parable, no matter what during that reception, some people will always be able to sneak in pretending to be supporters and then open the doors to the remaining public that were turned down and are waiting at the door, and everyone will be able to watch everything at same time no matter what the creator does to stop it, and that's something he must live with.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby Mortze » Tue, 16Dec13 17:04

GingkoBiloba wrote:It's a pity to see this game is already widely available on file sharing sites, using your parable, no matter what during that reception, some people will always be able to sneak in pretending to be supporters and then open the doors to the remaining public that were turned down and are waiting at the door, and everyone will be able to watch everything at same time no matter what the creator does to stop it, and that's something he must live with.

It is always unfortunate and even immoral when someone takes your work and publishes it without your consent. But in this particular case I don't feel bad for myself about it. I feel bad for Tlaero and I feel bad for the patrons who were supposed to have the privilege to play and test the game before hand as an appreciation of their efforts.
But the game will be public in less than 2 weeks. And in this very particular case, sharing the game without our consent doesn't hurt me much.
Using the parabole again, it should be the patrons that should summon Interneti's guards and punish the cultprits. Many of those cultprist amongst themselves sadly.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby JFR » Tue, 16Dec13 18:55

artorawley wrote:... Also, you say "Nobody's money is buying content" but that is exactly what's going on here. Those that have subbed prior to December 1st have effectively paid for this content, and those that would like to pay now are not allowed to for nebulous reasons. ...

Response in "spoiler" since it is OT.
You continue to miss the point. I'll make my last point on this and quit commenting. Mortze has made his position clear and he is a big boy who doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him.

The difference here - and I hasten to say that I am not accusing the originator of this discussion of doing this - is that some folks will jump in to pledge just before a new game or project drops, collect whatever perks might be offered for patrons and then drop their patronage until the next game is about to drop when they do it all over again. By doing this, they wind up paying their support once or twice per year, only when a new product is about to become available. That is paying for content, not patronage.

The other option is for supporters to set up a recurring pay schedule, every month, of support whether a new game is ready to come out or not, just to support the work. Those folks may pay 12 times over the course of a year while the first example has paid once or twice. The artists have attempted to find a way to thank the continuous supporters for their support, even during the "off" months. That makes complete sense to me. A two-week jump on the official release date as a way of saying thank you does not seem to be hostile to newcomers at all. The alternative would be to hold off on the release to everyone until the official date and come up with some other scheme to thank the loyal folks who contribute all year. Many artists on the P site do it that way. Some do it this way. It is just a special thank you for continued support. I don't understand why this would create animosity. Unless the point is to "pay only once for the new game's early release."

Enough! The artists are very articulate and don't need one of their patrons to speak for them. I'm done here.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby stoper » Tue, 16Dec13 23:06

I was looking for the P-a-t-r-e-0-n page to support you (why didn't you post a link for it? is there some rule here against promoting your work?) and actually found two. Both giving the game as a reward. One is Mortze, the other Tora Productions. Which one am I suppose to support? Or both are the same? I'm confused.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby LRM » Wed, 16Dec14 01:02

stoper wrote:I was looking for the P-a-t-r-e-0-n page to support you (why didn't you post a link for it? is there some rule here against promoting your work?) and actually found two. Both giving the game as a reward. One is Mortze, the other Tora Productions. Which one am I suppose to support? Or both are the same? I'm confused.

Shark likes to promote and play all games... but he hates to become an advertising venue for any pay site.
Lately everyone that wrote a game came here to post a link to their pay site (never to post here again) and Shark tired of seeing them.
Anyone can still come here and discuss their game... you just can't post a link unless it's completely free to all.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Dec14 03:51

I've got a bunch of things to reply to. I'll do them in separate posts to keep things from getting too long.

Patrons vs Paying for Content

Here's my stance on this. I'm honored that people are willing to give up their hard-earned money to encourage Mortze and I to make our games. I'm extremely cognizant of the fact that a lot of people in the world can't afford the $120/year that it would cost to get the $10 perks every month, and I would be uncomfortable if anyone struggling to make ends meet gave their money to me. This is why I make all previous perks available every month when I release one. I want to support the guy who can only afford to pay a few times a year, etc. That said, I'm human. I DO appreciate a long time patron more than someone who pays once a year. One of our patrons, in particular, just blows me away with his generosity.

As for the $5 patrons, officially, all they get for that is the option to play a new game a little early. I feel bad that I have people who consistently paid for 11 months and got "nothing" for it until this week. (Not exactly, since I sometimes send the $10 perks to long time $5 patrons, but I do that for this reason.) So, yeah, loyalty matters to me, and I want to do something for my loyal patrons.

In this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3954 I gave away a perk for free and announced that if you wanted to play FM before January, you'd need to become a patron before Dec 1st. I recognize that not everyone reads the lagoon every day, but we're only talking about waiting two weeks for the free public release, which itself, is early compared to what I said would happen.

As for the new p a t r e o n feature that you can be billed immediately. There are a couple of problems with that.

First, what happens when you join on November 29th, get billed, and then get billed again on December 1st? Is anyone going to find that acceptable?

Second, it's a TON more work for me. Currently one day out of the month I have p a t r e o n generate a list of current patrons, and I send them a mail. If I switched to billing immediately, I'd have to check for new patrons, at a minimum, once a day. What happens if I go on vacation for a few days? Do I have to find a way to sign in every day to send perks and such to people who have just signed up? This is ESPECIALLY bad when linked to the first point. What happens when someone signs up on November 29th, but I don't notice and don't end up sending him any perks until December 3rd. The payment they made on the 29th got them nothing. (No, not the satisfaction of supporting Mortze and I making these games. The people clamoring for this aren't in it for that.)

Where should I spend my scarce time, making games or handling new patrons? The majority of my patrons will say, "making games."

As for the difference between supporting Mortze or Tora, that line is blurring. I run the Tora page, and Mortze runs his. Money from Mortze's patrons goes to him. Money from the Tora ones is basically split between us. I'm fine with Mortze sending Tora perks to his patrons. Now that I'll be working on Pandora, we'll likely send Pandora games to Tora patrons. I'm mostly doing the P a t r e o n thing for Mortze, so I'm happy with people supporting either one.

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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Dec14 04:04

Finding Miranda on file sharing sites

This tears me up. I'm going to give away the game for free in 11 days. But despite the fact that I spent the majority of my free time for the better part of a year making this game, people have so little respect for me that they've already uploaded it to multiple sites. Make no mistake. This does NOT help me. It makes my life worse. What happens if someone finds a bug and I fix it? What happens when I release the Italian and French versions? How do I track how FM is doing compared to DwE and RfJ? How do I know that the pirate versions haven't been modified?

I know the "information should be free" people exist. Those people can rot in hell. It is not unreasonable for me to ask people to keep their privileged early copies to themselves for fourteen bloody days.

Let me be very clear about this. People uploading my stuff against my wishes is the action that is going to make me stop making stuff.

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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby ltpika » Wed, 16Dec14 04:12

I like the customizable personal history. Makes you feel more connected to the character. Kinda sad there is no option to play a non-white person in these games. Ishmael was great looking, that model was good enough to be the main character.
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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Dec14 04:31

Inverse Bechdel

Why doesn't the scene with Lucas and Vince talking about dubstep make the game pass the "Inverse Bechdel Test"?


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Re: Finding Miranda

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Dec14 05:09

Miranda the super-coder

Seriously, this is a major spoiler. If you haven't played the game yet, stop reading this post.

...

...

Not kidding...

...

...

Okay, I warned you...

It's always a challenge to find the right degree of subtly when explaining something in a story. I know all the secrets, since I wrote them, so it's hard to know if I'm being "too obvious" or "too obtuse" in revealing these secrets. There's also the problem that different people need varying degrees of hints to understand. It's like that unplugged version of Layla where Clapton says "See if you can spot this one" and starts playing. Some people recognize it immediately and start clapping. Some don't get it until he starts singing. And some don't get it until he launches into the chorus. My spouse and I have this problem with movies and tv shows all the time. We'll get it about 10 minutes in, and fourty minutes later when they do the big shocking reveal, we'll turn to each other and say, "Are you shocked? I'm shocked!"

Miranda is not a super coder. Miranda isn't even a very good coder.

What Miranda is very good at, some would say unnaturally so, is solving problems.
There are multiple times in the game where she solves a problem in an "unrealistic" manner (in quotes because a regular human couldn't do what she does in these cases).
Both the main good guy and the main bad guy want to tap this problem solving ability of hers.
And there's a place where she says explicitly that she's trying not to see something as a problem, because if she did she'd solve it.

Miranda has a power that allows her to see the solution to problems. It's a very powerful power. All she has to do is look at an issue as a problem, and she sees the solution to it. THAT's what she did in the conference room. She said to herself, "What would it take to break this?" and immediately, magically, saw a solution. It was obvious to her, but truthfully, she said that because the bastard deserved it.

You're welcome to think it's unrealistic that a problem solving power like this could exist. You're equally welcome to think that the ability to influence people with singing or in their dreams couldn't exist. But if you'll grant me Elsa and Jess, then you kind of need to grant me Miranda. I'd say that Elsa's and Jess's powers are more powerful than hers. She can just solve problems. They can directly control people.

Incidentally, the Takada sisters have a (shared) power too, and Miranda recognized it. That was the point of her suggesting they meet Xara.

People accuse me of making my female characters "too strong" but I feel that the reverse is true. Wouldn't it be cool if the Takadas were able to beat the men without a power? That would be a strong woman.


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