Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Issho » Thu, 17May18 20:47

There´s one reason why I couldn´t really identify with your male protagonists on the last three games. I had the impression, that the women always led them. If you as the male weren´t d´accord with something, well then...no points or minus points. It always seemed, that their opinion were above everyones else.

The males seemed very unsure, with no self-confidents, no cocky and funny, no teasing, no flirting, no touching (her/his arm etc. in interactions) or similar stuff...how many guys act, when they like a girl or find them sexy. (for the one on this game there was a good backstory for his behaviour, so I´m excluding him). In the sex scenes everyone seemed to change drastically from shy to seducer. But excluding them, I had by none of the males the impression, that they really could seduce a woman (when they get to know each other). It felt more like "help her and you´ll achieve gold." It seemed, that the women always had the upper hand, that there wasn´t a balance between her and the man. She could leave him anytime without a doubt and he would be hurt. I couldn´t imagine the same the other way around. I think making a guy more independent could be something refreshing, not falling too soon for a girl.

Offtopic:
I still think that you should make a game from a female perspective. Your best game was and still is Living with Keeley. You´ve got the huge advantage of being a woman yourself. You know how a woman feels, what desires she has, how she naturally acts, how her daily live is, how her interactions with men are...on the streets, online, work..everywhere. Something that no man can guess completely right. It´s a completely different world between man and woman and it needs different strategies to conquer. No male writer (no matter of what a good story writer he is) can portray a woman better than a woman herself. Do it, use your advantage for this Tlaero. Use your female force! If you still think, that most men don´t like a female protagonist, than how about a experiment? A game with a female and a male protagonist? You, with the focuse on the female one and mortze with the focus on the man.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Niauropsaka » Thu, 17May18 22:26

Oh, yeah, there probably should be more opportunity to touch and flirt for no points or for bonus points.

That said, I don't think being a truly passive guy generally works in Tlaero's games. Well, maybe Adrian in Getting to Know Christine, assuming you would want to stay in that relationship. No, I think the writer expects you to be assertive. The problem for players is being "assertive" at the right time and in the right way to solve the puzzle and read the rest of the story. So you have to conform to a predetermined pattern of supposed assertiveness, rather than being truly autonomous. The puzzle nature of the game boxes you in.

In theory, this could be a guide for dating a woman with roughly Tlaero's taste in men and idea of male behaviour. In practice, it's a great deal of work to read a romance novelette, and it doesn't feel assertive.

I don't expect to change the way Tlaero writes. I enjoy some of what she and Phreaky and Mortze have come up with, but the game structure isn't that appealing to me. And that's fine. I accept that I'm not really the intended audience, anyway, nor would I be if I were a man, because what I would like out of a visual novel or role play experience is a little more sandbox and a lot less railroad. I can usually put up with it enough to get through at least one ending, because I like the characters and scenarios enough.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby cwan222 » Fri, 17May19 00:02

When I played DwE, RfJ, FM, I was sort of under the impression that the main characters were the girls. They are the titular characters. They have the "super powers," they have the most growth throughout the games and the most direct impact in their environment. Lucas is smart and capable but he isn't going the focus on this "shadow war" that's happening behind the scenes in the Elsa-verse. Plus, the game is structured that even though its from the man's POV, literally every moment of his POV is focused on the girl of the game. Your focus is on the main character and there's more focus on the girls than the guys. That doesn't mean that the males are weak and useless. I guess a good analogy is The Great Gatsby. In the Great Gatsby, the POV is Nick but he acts mainly as a spectator with an inside glimpse to the life of Gatsby. Sure Nick had character development but the main focus of the book was Gatsby. I feel like its the same way with the three guys we had so far. They are ordinary people who happened to meet extraordinary girls.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby tlaero » Fri, 17May19 04:30

I'm not sure what to make of constructive criticism. People say that they want changes, but, almost universally, when I make those changes, no one cares.

Remember when so many people were saying that Marc must be weak because he didn't even pick the dates he and Jessica went on? When I made Lucas pick not one but four dates, did any of those people say, "Yes, that was better"? No, they did not.

Remember when Marc was weak because the only hobby I documented in the game was his liking Mayhem? When we described two non-Miranda hobbies for Lucas (including one she made fun of him for), did any of those people comment positively? Nope.

Remember when people complained that we only saw Marc doing stuff for Jessica? Did they notice an entire scene with Lucas talking about his non-Miranda hobby with another guy?

Remember when people said they wanted choices in a sex scene? Did they comment positively about the multipath casino sex scene?

How about people who claimed left and right that they wanted at least a little bit choice and branching, and even sent links to term papers full of interconnected boxes that look a whole lot like FM's structure? Crickets when it came out. Actually, negative crickets. People complained that I made them play the game 4 times to see all the content.

People who complained that Marc had no backstory? Few comments on Lucas'.

People who, after every game, complain that you have to say nice things to the woman you want to sleep with? No notice that in FM you don't succeed or fail by how you treat Miranda, but how you play according to the backstory that you had the choice to pick.


Say I give people a game with 16 interconnected branches driven by user choices, that lead to completely different outcomes, with three different females to have sex with? What will happen then?

I'll tell you what will happen:
1) ExLibris will post a hatchet job of a review.
2) No one will talk about how great the "agency" is. Instead they'll say that there isn't any real agency because when you play it all 16 times, you see all the different endings, and some of them aren't as good as others, so I "forced" you to pick one path.
3) People will complain that each individual story was, like, 1/16 as long, and they want long, complex, interesting stories.
4) Other people will post that I used to be good, but then I became a money grubbing whore for Pat.reon. Here on the lagoon, they'll say it differently, but with the same meaning: "I know you had to rush the game out to appease your patrons." Elsewhere on the internet, they'll call me much worse than "whore."
5) In many places (though probably not here) people will say they're fed up with my "feminist agenda."
6) And someone will say, "I'm through with these terrible games. I can't believe the women don't shave."

If you think these things won't happen, you don't read the same internet that I do.

"Constructive criticism" is just "criticism" if you don't actually care when the recipient listens to you. I get a lot of said criticism.

I have a day job, and, outside of it, I spend 10 - 20 hours a week, every week, writing these games. I give them away for free. Sometimes I wonder why I bother...

And then I remember that the majority of the feedback is positive and that the majority of my players enjoy the games. And I take a deep breath and try to push the ugly out of my head. Some days I do better at that than others.

Tlaero
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Crane » Fri, 17May19 05:32

tlaero wrote: Elsewhere on the internet, they'll call me much worse than "whore."
Tlaero

:lol: Now, that's true.

I know. I know. You don't find that funny at all, but still couldn't help myself.

Hey. this is internet. This is the place when everyone can be a critic, a reviewer, an expert, an analyst or whatever. And people DO like to write about the "bad stuff" much more than the "good stuff". A superior point of view always makes people feel better. Actually criticizing is the most common therapy.
So, nothing personal. But of course you already know that.

So why don't you make a game based on that fantastic render Mortze posted and call it a day?
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby JFR » Fri, 17May19 06:48

Crane wrote:... So why don't you make a game based on that fantastic render Mortze posted and call it a day?

Of course, that is a game I would not be interested in playing. [img]images/icones/icon12.gif[/img]
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby JFR » Fri, 17May19 06:49

tlaero wrote:... And then I remember that the majority of the feedback is positive and that the majority of my players enjoy the games.

[img]images/icones/icon7.gif[/img] x 1000.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Crane » Fri, 17May19 07:04

JFR wrote:
Crane wrote:... So why don't you make a game based on that fantastic render Mortze posted and call it a day?

Of course, that is a game I would not be interested in playing. [img]images/icones/icon12.gif[/img]


Oh, come on. [img]images/icones/icon17.gif[/img]
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Marco6661 » Fri, 17May19 07:07

@Tlaero:

Une remarque à "2 balles" peut-être mais une remarque quand même...

Pourquoi ne pas tout simplement, chère Tlaero, continuer à écrire les histoires que vous aimez et créer les jeux tels que vous le désirez?
Il est impossible de satisfaire tout le monde, et d'ailleurs, il ne faut pas.

Ce qui rend vos créations exceptionnelles, c'est cette alchimie complexe qui mêle qualité d'écriture, intérêt du scénario, rigueur du montage, mais surtout ... cette part de vous-même que vous apportez à vos réalisations, ce petit supplément d'âme qu'il est si difficile de trouver dans la plupart des œuvres littéraires, que l'on parle de romans, scénarii, ou quelque écrit que ce soit.

Il est très généreux de votre part de vous inquiéter du ressenti de chacun, merci, mais mon opinion est qu'il est mille fois plus important que vous gardiez le plaisir d'écrire et de créer ce qui vous plait à VOUS, et merde! à ceux qui ne savent qu'asséner des critiques contre productive.

On ne peut pas plaire à tout le monde, et c'est tant mieux!

Sorry, I have not the knowledge for translate exactly in English what I wrote this morning, I hope than one charitable people do that for you, Lady Tlaero.

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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby xCooLer2 » Fri, 17May19 08:19

While I deeply agree with Marco6661 (but is early morning and the translator in me is still sleeping) I would like to point a final scene of a film that I like very much.

Film is Pixar's Ratatouille, if you have not see it you should take a day off right now and watch it (together with Wall-E and UP).
The film is, among other stuff, about a young talented chef and a restaurant critic

That's the final critic speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih6jcKd7VwU
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby Niauropsaka » Fri, 17May19 11:31

Well, that 'put me in my place,' if I'm using that idiom correctly. I still don't have so much as a minigame coded, what do I know?

Hey, there are reasons I do try to play a new Tlaero game when it comes out.

I like your sarcastic sense of humour. You actually do write good dialogue. Your games are smart, complex, involved, and daring. Your characters can seem very human. And the game structure does get the player involved in that dialogue and that humanity. The Elsaverse is a world I'm still trying to figure out.

About this game: The sex scenes in Finding Miranda are visually amazing. (I still can't get my models to do all that.) I haven't said a lot about the choices at the beginning, because I haven't played them all.

The games are also at times aggravating to play. I figure that's part of their charm for the puzzle enthusiasts on this forum. But it does mean they're not for everyone.

I should be clear what I mean by that. Of course, no game is for everyone. The answer to people not liking your game is never going to be "change your game to appeal to everyone." You can't. It's just a matter of accepting that you have your audience and you have your detractors, and that's how it is.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby SimonO » Fri, 17May19 13:54

Hands down the best written games in the genre. Thanks to Tlaero and Mortze for putting heart and soul into producing these . . .
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby ljensul » Fri, 17May19 13:58

tlaero wrote:And then I remember that the majority of the feedback is positive and that the majority of my players enjoy the games. And I take a deep breath and try to push the ugly out of my head. Some days I do better at that than others.

And that is the best thing you can do. People will always have something to complain about since you can not please everyone. I hope, by the way your games are build up and told, the majority of scum who just complain instead of giving feedback are already filtered out. Your games are great and both Mortze and you deserve a lot of credit for it, specially in this kind of field. The changes you made might not be separately thanked for but are thanked for in general by saying the game is great.

In my own kind of work I have to deal with a lot of opinions. I listen to them all but a lot of times you simple can not follow through on them for a lot of reasons. And people do rather talk about the ''bad'' more then the good . Your priority should be with your own ideas and what you like to make. If you can listen to what the some people wants, that is great. But if you cant (because some things people want are just crazy) then its to bad for them. Its your game and you are the one that puts hours of hours of free time in it.

Keep up the good work and for what its worth, I think you make the best games out there and they are getting better and better.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby vkalvkal » Fri, 17May19 14:00

That kind of answer wasn't something I was expecting. Specially pointing out ExLibris when I think he/she writes a review that I don't think you should take too personal. Actually, I do agree with some of his/her arguments, although he/she may make some poor choice of words, which he/she usually acknowledges later on his/her comments. But I digress.

I was planning on replaying the games to point out how I feel about your male MCs, but I won't do it anymore. I'll just point out things that I thought you improved on and the nice things I end up seeing in FM.
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Re: Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

Postby RobNorthman » Fri, 17May19 14:02

I'm going to preface this post by quoting the great Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw.
Yahtzee wrote:Fans are clinging complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make, the moment you shut out their shrill tremulous voices the happier you'll be for it.

Sure it's a harsh way to put it, but it holds a grain of truth. Constructive criticism is worth gold, it helps separate the wheat from the chaff, but you'll also find that most criticism is just chaff. As a creator it can be hard to not focus on the negatives, which is why it's sometimes better for everyone to just ignore the critics altogether. Give in to the detractors and they'll claw at you until there's nothing left.

tlaero wrote:I'm not sure what to make of constructive criticism. People say that they want changes, but, almost universally, when I make those changes, no one cares.


It's an issue all game developers face, big and small alike. You have hundreds of people who all have different ideas and suggestions that cater to their specific want. Most of those people rarely grasp how their ideas affect the whole picture, or how much work is involved in creating it. Most people have no grasp on, or appreciation for, how much work goes into creating a game. Case in point being all the indie games, erotic or otherwise, out there that never get past the alpha stage.

tlaero wrote:Remember when so many people were saying that Marc must be weak because he didn't even pick the dates he and Jessica went on? When I made Lucas pick not one but four dates, did any of those people say, "Yes, that was better"? No, they did not.

Some people are natural leaders(Jessica), some are natural followers(Marc), some prefer forge their own path(Lucas/Miranda). The same kind of dynamic exists in real relationships as well. If all you want is a Alpha male wish fulfillment fantasy, Tlaero and Mortze games are not for you.

tlaero wrote:Remember when Marc was weak because the only hobby I documented in the game was his liking Mayhem? When we described two non-Miranda hobbies for Lucas (including one she made fun of him for), did any of those people comment positively? Nope.

Sure Marc could have been fleshed out more, but at some point you have to decide whether you're writing a game or a novel, and whose character building is more important to the story. Marc isn't the hero of the story, he's the sidekick or support, the vehicle through which Jessica's story is told.

tlaero wrote:Remember when people said they wanted choices in a sex scene? Did they comment positively about the multipath casino sex scene?

I think it was a nice touch, personally I'd love to see more of the interactivity in the last scene in RfJ, or maybe a combination of them where it branches off depending on how well you're pleasing her.

tlaero wrote:How about people who claimed left and right that they wanted at least a little bit choice and branching, and even sent links to term papers full of interconnected boxes that look a whole lot like FM's structure? Crickets when it came out. Actually, negative crickets. People complained that I made them play the game 4 times to see all the content.

To build a highly complex story with multiple fully divergent paths is something that requires a whole team of developers and sometimes years of development time, and time increases exponentially for every new branch. It's a helluva lot more work than most people realize. I'm sure Wolfshadowe can attest to that. :lol:

tlaero wrote:People who, after every game, complain that you have to say nice things to the woman you want to sleep with? No notice that in FM you don't succeed or fail by how you treat Miranda, but how you play according to the backstory that you had the choice to pick.

As opposed to slapping their asses while making lewd remarks? This isn't the 1950's, and even back then it was in poor taste. Maybe the fetish or trainer games are more to their liking.

tlaero wrote:Say I give people a game with 16 interconnected branches driven by user choices, that lead to completely different outcomes, with three different females to have sex with? What will happen then?

I'll tell you what will happen:
1) ExLibris will post a hatchet job of a review.
2) No one will talk about how great the "agency" is. Instead they'll say that there isn't any real agency because when you play it all 16 times, you see all the different endings, and some of them aren't as good as others, so I "forced" you to pick one path.
3) People will complain that each individual story was, like, 1/16 as long, and they want long, complex, interesting stories.
4) Other people will post that I used to be good, but then I became a money grubbing whore for Pat.reon. Here on the lagoon, they'll say it differently, but with the same meaning: "I know you had to rush the game out to appease your patrons." Elsewhere on the internet, they'll call me much worse than "whore."
5) In many places (though probably not here) people will say they're fed up with my "feminist agenda."
6) And someone will say, "I'm through with these terrible games. I can't believe the women don't shave."

I want to stress here that these are just my opinions, use them or lose them as you wish.
[Time*devs=complexity] For a small 2 man team it's better to keep branching to a minimum and focus on great storytelling.

1) I'm not familiar with ExLibris' reviews, I am a fan of his/her walkthroughs though.
2) Which is why I think you should keep branching to a minimum.
3) See 2.
4)I think all the games have their strengths and weaknesses, but they're always getting better. I like that you're not afraid of experimenting and trying out new things, some things work, others don't. It's all a learning process. As for the people calling you a moneygrubbing whore, they can seriously go fuck themselves, you don't owe them anything.
5)I've seen feminist agenda, this isn't it. Sounds more like they hate anyone who doesn't cater to their alpha male fantasy.
6) The bush is back, deal with it! Seriously though, maybe it's because I'm a 70's kid but I think a bit of bush just adds to the eroticism. Actually one of the things I really enjoyed, and I'm not sure if it was intentional or not. But in DwE Chloe had a neatly trimmed landing strip, while in RfJ she had full bush. Which to me bespoke how stressed out and worried about failure she was, that she forgot to care about personal grooming.

tlaero wrote:If you think these things won't happen, you don't read the same internet that I do.

"Constructive criticism" is just "criticism" if you don't actually care when the recipient listens to you. I get a lot of said criticism.

Signal to noise ratio on the Internet is huge, the sooner you filter out the noise the better, and never engage a troll or hater in conversation, it's usually a futile endeavor.

tlaero wrote:I have a day job, and, outside of it, I spend 10 - 20 hours a week, every week, writing these games. I give them away for free. Sometimes I wonder why I bother...

And then I remember that the majority of the feedback is positive and that the majority of my players enjoy the games. And I take a deep breath and try to push the ugly out of my head. Some days I do better at that than others.

Tlaero


I have the utmost respect for the work you and Mortze are doing, and considering you're doing it for free, no one has any right to complain.
At the end of the day this is your baby, if you decide to end it by throwing them all in to a lava pit, then that's your prerogative. Write the story however you like it, and fuck the haters!

//Rob
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