Choosing dates vs replaying content

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Is it better to choose dates and need to replay or to see everything in one play?

I'd rather choose.
90
70%
I don't like replaying content I've already seen.
39
30%
 
Total votes : 129

Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby JFR » Fri, 16Jul22 22:55

tlaero wrote:... I wonder how many people even saw the Male-Male-Female sex scene in Redemption for Jessika. ... ... Some people probably really enjoyed finding it, but I suspect most don't even know it exists. ...

I stumbled across it but since it involved a couple of characters I really didn't care about, it didn't matter to me. I don't play your style of game/story just to see how many random people I can bang. There are other game types for that. Others may feel differently.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby Mortze » Fri, 16Jul22 23:04

tlaero wrote:Marc wouldn't have been interested in Elsa.

Marc is an idiot then. :p
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby JFR » Sat, 16Jul23 00:15

Mortze wrote:
tlaero wrote:Marc wouldn't have been interested in Elsa.

Marc is an idiot then. :p

+1. [img]images/icones/icon7.gif[/img]
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby Greyelf » Sat, 16Jul23 02:54

I believe there are times when giving the reader a choice between two different emotive statements (eg. between a comical and a caring one) that result in the same general outcome can help the reader become more immersed in the story because they get to responded more like they themselves would.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby muttdoggy » Sat, 16Jul23 04:26

I did come across the Male-Male-Female scene in Redemption for Jessika. Because of the model involved and the way it played out, I enjoyed it. Even if it didn't affect the story, it was a fun diversion. I think something similar in a new game would be quite fun. What if those kinds of scenes become dependent on a hidden choice you made that didn't affect the game but affected the chance of it occurring. Say for instance, you go to a restaurant and during the date there is an interaction with another customer that doesn't affect the date or the story itself. But if you acted correctly, you'd trigger a scene that would be really fun. Like after you escort your date to the cab waiting outside and you're about to walk the short distance home when you get the invite or even get pulled into an alley for an impromptu session? :crazy:
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby JFR » Sat, 16Jul23 04:50

muttdoggy wrote:... or even get pulled into an alley for an impromptu session? :crazy:

So ... basically, get mugged. ;)
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby Maurice » Sat, 16Jul23 13:46

Tlaera wrote:
The block suggestion kind of reminds me of the mechanic in Living with Keeley. That game was all about playing in any order you wanted, and using events not points to impact what you could do. Later games were much more popular, but I wonder how much Keeley's lackluster reception was owed to the fact that you played a woman compared to the differences in game play.


Well I do consider the "pick the right answer model" a member of the "blocks model family". I considered it a benefit it wouldn't be to big a step away from how you are doing things now.

As for why Keeley was received so lackluster compared to your other games (I consider its actual reception still enviable for a lot of games), personally I think it is not the part of the premise that you play as a woman but the part of the premise that makes it so you can only (in the best case scenario not) lose.

By the end of the game you end up with an interesting relationship. The very same thing you start out with.

(at the start of the game) Keeley is afraid she is not good enough for Marc, so she spices up their sex life.
Personally I consider this borderline abuse. (people doing things they don't want to in orderto achieve something else)
Whenever I play those kind of games (sexual abuse) I feel good about myself that I feel bad about myself whilst playing those games.

I prefer a games I can win (achieve a situation clearly preferable to the situation(s) before victory) both as the protagonist and myself (the player).
And I like games that confirm my moral code (when I do bad things, some good things might happen short-term, but eventually the bad things will start happening)

Keeley failed to deliver on both of these (for me) so the game shifted from enjoyable to interesting.

I think the game could have been great if it had a second (but hidden) plot line with Marc trying to do basically the same as Keeley (try to spice up their sex life and fail miserably a couple of times)

To pull off an enjoyable experience of weak woman strong man whilst playing as the woman for primarily a male audience, well I guess the writing was not good enough. (You put the bar a little too high for yourself, but I applaud you for doing so)
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby Jack_Smythe » Sat, 16Jul23 20:29

tlaero wrote:
While Ariane was absolutely earthshatteringly groundbreaking and genre creating, I feel that apparent freedom doesn't have enough content to make it worthwhile. All of those intricate paths lead back to a relatively small number of "rewards" (in that case, sex scenes). The first few times through, I enjoyed taking alternate paths even though they ended up in the same place, but my enjoyment waned as I did more.


I think I didn't express my thoughts that well. It's not about paths, but about layers. When I re-read the example I gave, I realize now it wasn't a very good one. A better one would be viewing scenes/events in the story as an onion. For example, in DWE, you gave two different paths in the dream sequences based on preconceived, laid out paths...the love/angel kind of one and the more dominant/devil kind of one. Those were paths. Now, let's envision DWE where the player enters the scene the same but based on decisions that were prior to it, the scene now unfolds little layer by little layer, not paths, but veils being lifted dependent on prior and current player choices (or point system if you want).

So, we meet Elsa and dependent on choices prior and choices within the scene, various other options open up or are fulfilled, allowing the player and Elsa to drive the scene together. This could be done by a character unlocking a more adventurous Elsa by getting her more worked up with extended foreplay, much like you had options during the final sex scene of DWE going between neck and breasts and what not while they were on the couch. If a player doesn't spend a lot of time on foreplay and goes through basic motions, then they miss out on a hornier Elsa who may react differently by her maybe taking control for a part of the experience or choosing to straddle the player rather than going missionary. Like in real life where you can sometimes make it a quickie or an extended session or even a cuddle fest.

You've done things like this a lot with your works but the decisions were made prior to the event in many cases by you the developer and not the player. The freedom was taken away from the player. And with this type of scene development, where you can allow the player a little freedom in how to progress through the sex scene, it will not affect the story at all and you can even make the story more immersive at a later part by having the characters reference what may have happened during that encounter (i.e. while walking along the boulevard holding hands "That was a great night. You remember how you got me so worked up and I straddled you! You got me so wild!" or "That was a great night! I loved how you just TOOK me, no foreplay, just fucking my brains out right there on the sofa"), thereby personalizing the play experience while still offering replay value. The story will not be sacrificed at all!

tlaero wrote:As for BEW, the kinds of stories I'm currently telling don't lend themselves to games where you can date multiple people. I'd rather create Dreaming with Elsa, then Redemption for Jessika, and then Finding Miranda (not out yet) than wait until all 3 are done and release them together in one game. Also, the stories I'm telling require differing player characters. Jason couldn't have helped Jessika. Marc wouldn't have been interested in Elsa. Etc. That's not to say that it's impossible to do a game where one guy is attractive to multiple female characters. BEW is doing that very well. It's just that that's not a story I'm interested in telling.


I am sorry to say this, but I think you are wrong here and are under a misconception. I think your games lend themselves very well to this. Freedom doesn't mean polygamy. The kind of freedom I'm talking about is freedom to, for lack of a better word, role-play. Like another member of the lagoon stated, it's about letting the player feel like they can play more like themselves while still operating the protagonist and not be so corralled into certain choices. I think you hit upon this in RFJ when you gave the player the choice of Jessika either sucking his dick or him face fucking her because she's a rocker chick and doesn't mind either way. THAT was a choice that didn't involve a different path but instead provided another layer to the encounter with either result still not really changing the story you wanted to tell.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby Asdref » Sat, 16Jul23 20:37

TheBrain wrote:A successful playthrough then becomes something like "find out about A, do B, avoid C, be successful at D, etc.", instead of "+1 A, +1 A, +1 B, +2 A, etc.". In the last type of game I usually find myself cheating at least once to find out about the right choice somewhere.


I do the same. The game where we need to have the good number of points to can have a particular scene are often frustrating.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby TheGreatJoeGargery » Sun, 16Jul24 17:12

tlaero wrote: If anyone has any ideas for good gameplay mechanics that integrate well into the stories of these games, I'm interested in hearing them. Note that I'm specifically asking for the gameplay here, not "make it branch more." We've already had that discussion.Tlaero


I'd actually like to see advances in the "artificial intelligence" (I really hate that term) of these types of games, where the game responds to the player's decisions by altering the way it responds to the player. This doesn't necessarily have to mean that a player picks a dialogue choice and changes the story. This could mean that the player picks a dialogue choice and changes the character the player is playing.

Since you're a Bioware fan I'm sure you're aware of the Bioware dialogue wheel. I've always thought that could be a mechanic by itself. In the last two Dragon Age games the location of the response on the dialogue selection on the wheel corresponds to a specific emotion (either good, sarcastic or aggressive) while there are other spots left aside for special responses which become available if you do something in game (talk to the right NPC and get information, have the right ability, etc.). Mass Effect does this to a limited effect as well with offering you Paragon or Interrupt choices if you've filled up the respective meter enough.

So let's say that as you play the game you can fill up three different meters with your responses. We'll call them nice, funny and serious. When you select a nice choice, you get a point in nice (and a point in funny when you pick a funny response, etc). In your current games you usually get so far then at a critical point in the game the game will check to see if you have enough points to continue. How about instead, when you get to those points when the game checks your score, it looks at the amount of points you have in your meters and unlocks the corresponding dialogue response. So if you have enough points in funny, it unlocks a funny response that allows you to continue the game. Now you could even mix and match the meters for different responses. Say if you have enough points in both nice and funny, it unlocks a complimentary joke to charm the object of your affection. Serious and funny could give you a very dry sense of humor, and so on and so fourth. If you can't unlock a response that allows you to get past a critical moment then you can't progress in the game.

There could be times where you will have enough points in the various meters to unlock more than one response at a checkpoint. Say you have a choice of both nice and funny responses unlocked at a checkpoint. Now the game tracks which one you choose at that critical juncture and starts assigning your character a personality based on what you pick throughout the game. The characters in the game may then have a few different dialogue responses to you based on what your personality, or there may be a scene or two that unfolds slightly differently depending on your personality. It would not be enough to alter the story significantly, but enough to give a slightly different experience under the players control. Basically you could just make one linear story and instead of branching story paths, add in various scenes like the male-male-female scene from Redemption for Jessica at various locations triggering when the right conditions have been met. This could just be a very small dialogue exchange that you wouldn't otherwise get or a larger scene like a sex scene for example. In fact, now having a very linear story is a benefit, because now the players are playing to enhance that story in their own particular way.

So now if you want to tell a completely linear story, you can feel free to do so. The player can feel the agency they want by being able to alter their character and experience during the game. They don't need to be given control over the story. All you really need to do is pepper in some additional dialogue and a few scenes to reflect the way the player has influenced the game.

As a side note, when you get more accustomed to this you can add more meters in your game and have more potential combinations. If you have a game with multiple potential love interests then this system could become even more complex. The love interests could each track your responses independently when they are present (so one girl could think you're nice while another who you had a completely different conversation with on a different day thinks you're funny). This gets even more complex if you have multiple girls in the same scene and try to manage how you want to present yourself to both girls and have to carefully select your dialogue responses. You could have some very complex social dynamics going on in your game if you wanted to. Of course doing this with a complex story going on in the game would be next to impossible so this falls into the category of a time where a story would be a deterrent to a game. This idea is more for someone else who is reading this thread and wishes to add another layer to a "meet and fuck" type game.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby tlaero » Sun, 16Jul24 21:27

I think about the Bioware response wheel quite a bit when I'm making these games. In Elsa, for instance, I could have had the leftmost dialog option always be the "sexual" one and the rightmost one always be the "respectful" one. I chose instead to mix it up so that players had to read the responses and choose which was right. Otherwise, they would just always click the one on the right and maybe not even read it. I didn't like in Bioware games that the Paragon response was always the top one and the renegade response was always the bottom. But I'm not sure that's the right way to go.

Jessika did some of the things you're suggesting. There were 7 meters and you needed various amounts of them to get all the way to the end. But you could choose when to say what. So if you wanted to be funny a funny guy, you could usually choose the funny option in the choices. If you didn't want to be "weak" you never had to choose the self-deprecating one. Etc. The idea of having a high enough rating in one area giving you other dialog options is interesting, though. Kind of like in Bioware when your Paragon is high enough that the Paragon dialog option appears. I'll think about how that could apply to a dating game. I've got the mechanic pretty locked in on Finding Miranda, but the next game after that one isn't fixed yet. And, the story in that game may lend itself to this kind of thing. Good suggestions, Joe.

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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby kexter » Sun, 16Jul24 22:34

tlaero wrote:I think about the Bioware response wheel quite a bit when I'm making these games. In Elsa, for instance, I could have had the leftmost dialog option always be the "sexual" one and the rightmost one always be the "respectful" one.
Confession time: when you released Dreaming with Elsa, I actually modified it to tint the responses according to which variable they modified, so I pretty much had the "red for renegade, blue for paragon" system in place. Playing like that made it really easy to test the two (three) main paths. Granted, it could be looked at as cheating but I felt it helped me steer the dialog more naturally. If you'd like it, I could dig up the code and send it to you, but it was for the original release.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby JFR » Sun, 16Jul24 23:36

kexter wrote:... Granted, it could be looked at as cheating ....

Could be?? [img]images/icones/icon14.gif[/img]

Of course, we are not all tech wizards of the dark arts. Just sayin'.
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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby tlaero » Sun, 16Jul24 23:56

I think if I wanted to go that route, I'd go with the physical location instead of the color. But it feels like that would remove what little gameplay exists in these games.

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Re: Choosing dates vs replaying content

Postby TheGreatJoeGargery » Mon, 16Jul25 03:52

tlaero wrote: I think about the Bioware response wheel quite a bit when I'm making these games. In Elsa, for instance, I could have had the leftmost dialog option always be the "sexual" one and the rightmost one always be the "respectful" one. I chose instead to mix it up so that players had to read the responses and choose which was right. Otherwise, they would just always click the one on the right and maybe not even read it. I didn't like in Bioware games that the Paragon response was always the top one and the renegade response was always the bottom. But I'm not sure that's the right way to go.


The reason they did that is because often the dialogue selection didn't word for word match the actual dialogue that was spoken. Often people would pick a response and end up insulting someone when they thought the response was non offensive or something like that. They started organizing everything by the intent of the selection so people aren't caught off guard.

tlaero wrote: The idea of having a high enough rating in one area giving you other dialog options is interesting, though. Kind of like in Bioware when your Paragon is high enough that the Paragon dialog option appears. Tlaero


Exactly, just like in Mass Effect 1 (in Mass Effect two and three you had paragon and renegade interrupts instead of your score unlocking dialogue options, which is pretty similar in concept).

I'd also consider combining the meters. If you have meters for Selfish (or Mean or Renegade) and Funny for example and and both are fairly high, you could have more sarcastic responses as opposed to Nice and Funny where you get more self depreciating humor. Different playthroughs could result in completely different dialogue choices throughout the game (so basically you'd have a main character with a completely different personality each game).

It sounds like you've already thought of most of this already. I think it would be more about tweaking the formula you already have and looking at your current mechanics in a slightly different way to make your games appeal to your current audience while drawing in more people who normally choose less linear games.
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