I guess this is one of those "which came first" questions....
Do you start with a model and design the script for how you perceive that character, or do you write a script and design a model that fits the role necessary for that script?
Next question: Do you write out the programming, select the hot-spots, questions & answers and then "cut and paste" the model into the scenes, or do you write the program/dialog/actions as the models are completed?
I guess what I'm asking here is, how much of what it is that you do is "mass production assembly line" and how much is "custom designed & hand-crafted"?
Game design
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Game design
by ExtraStiffy » Tue, 13Aug27 04:20
Don't sweat the petty things. And while you're at it... don't pet the sweaty things.
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ExtraStiffy - great white shark
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Re: Game design
by Brigma » Tue, 13Aug27 08:22
If quality games were mass produced, we'd be playing quality games more than just a couple times a year.
As for your question of making a model or a script first, that will really depend on your approach to a game. The games I like to play (and the one I'm trying to make in my free time) are usually the ones where it is obvious that the creator had a story in mind and that he or she wanted to tell it. If you fit into this category then the models should be an afterthought. Look at all the great text games (Peril in Pleasantville, Bad Sister, or any of Goblinboy's games) that feature either minimal graphics or no graphics at all. A great story can overcome a lack of graphics, especially if it's your first game and you're worried about your artistic skills.
Conversely, the word muse exists for a reason. It's entirely possible that playing around with a model could give you a story that you would not have otherwise created. What guy hasn't seen a pretty girl walk by only to realize that it's 10 minutes later and you've been doing nothing but fantasizing about her? If you get stuck with a particular part of the story this could get you out of your own head, so to speak, and let some inspiration leak in.
My advice would be a combination of the two. Have a list of characters, a story outline written out with all possible branching scenarios and a rough draft of the actual story; then play around with models till you find one that fits a character you are trying to depict. It's possible that your idea will craft the character or that the character you create will redefine your idea. It's also possible that you will make a character you like but that doesn't fit your mental image and you'll have a model to use for a different character, or an entirely new one. Then go back and forth between the outline and the modeling until you have a story you're proud to tell.
As for the actual programing, I may be thinking of this more from a programer's perspective than an artist's but I would focus on the programing first using quickly mocked up dummy images to make sure the game plays out like you intended it to play. I don't know what your background in programing is but your outline should help a lot. Also make a flow chart so you can keep track of any conditional branches and loops in the programing, it'll help when you're cursing into the wind because the program just won't work (it'll happen). After that, you can focus on making the game look pretty. As I said before there are plenty of quality games out there that aren't graphic intensive. Question and answer segments of a game should have been covered in your outline/flow chart so they can make their way into the programing at an early phase. For hot spots, I would recommend that you use dummy ones (i.e. right half of the screen or bottom left quarter) early on, and then once the artwork is completed you can redefine the areas to whatever you want (face, chest, hands etc.). Just make sure to write down in your notes that whatever the file is has to be fixed later, oh and by the way keep notes (just an organized .txt file should suffice).
Once all that is done and you have the models selected, you should be able to pose them in any position you want with decent modeling software (daz3d looks good). Then comes the problem I'm running into with making believable looking backgrounds. Faking artistic talent only gets you so far apparently...
As for your question of making a model or a script first, that will really depend on your approach to a game. The games I like to play (and the one I'm trying to make in my free time) are usually the ones where it is obvious that the creator had a story in mind and that he or she wanted to tell it. If you fit into this category then the models should be an afterthought. Look at all the great text games (Peril in Pleasantville, Bad Sister, or any of Goblinboy's games) that feature either minimal graphics or no graphics at all. A great story can overcome a lack of graphics, especially if it's your first game and you're worried about your artistic skills.
Conversely, the word muse exists for a reason. It's entirely possible that playing around with a model could give you a story that you would not have otherwise created. What guy hasn't seen a pretty girl walk by only to realize that it's 10 minutes later and you've been doing nothing but fantasizing about her? If you get stuck with a particular part of the story this could get you out of your own head, so to speak, and let some inspiration leak in.
My advice would be a combination of the two. Have a list of characters, a story outline written out with all possible branching scenarios and a rough draft of the actual story; then play around with models till you find one that fits a character you are trying to depict. It's possible that your idea will craft the character or that the character you create will redefine your idea. It's also possible that you will make a character you like but that doesn't fit your mental image and you'll have a model to use for a different character, or an entirely new one. Then go back and forth between the outline and the modeling until you have a story you're proud to tell.
As for the actual programing, I may be thinking of this more from a programer's perspective than an artist's but I would focus on the programing first using quickly mocked up dummy images to make sure the game plays out like you intended it to play. I don't know what your background in programing is but your outline should help a lot. Also make a flow chart so you can keep track of any conditional branches and loops in the programing, it'll help when you're cursing into the wind because the program just won't work (it'll happen). After that, you can focus on making the game look pretty. As I said before there are plenty of quality games out there that aren't graphic intensive. Question and answer segments of a game should have been covered in your outline/flow chart so they can make their way into the programing at an early phase. For hot spots, I would recommend that you use dummy ones (i.e. right half of the screen or bottom left quarter) early on, and then once the artwork is completed you can redefine the areas to whatever you want (face, chest, hands etc.). Just make sure to write down in your notes that whatever the file is has to be fixed later, oh and by the way keep notes (just an organized .txt file should suffice).
Once all that is done and you have the models selected, you should be able to pose them in any position you want with decent modeling software (daz3d looks good). Then comes the problem I'm running into with making believable looking backgrounds. Faking artistic talent only gets you so far apparently...
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Brigma - lagoon predator
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Re: Game design
by kessie8yl » Tue, 13Aug27 11:36
Broadly speaking I'm pretty much in agreement with what's already been said.
One of my most-voiced complaints is that certain games seem to exist only because the developer wanted to show off some new trick he'd learnt. The story has to come first.
Players want to be absorbed into the world the author has imagined. In order to do that, as well as having a good story, there should be no jarring interfaces such as the sudden introduction of a different way of controlling objects or gameplay. Players are pretty-much content to learn a different technique for controlling things from game to game as long as it is consistent and doesn't require an extra pair of arms to operate.
Strictly speaking graphics aren't necessary. Although I'm personally not a huge fan of text-based games, a great many people are - and the best ones are very good indeed. What I would say is that, if you are going to use graphics you either make sure they are good or opt for something deliberately quirky and hope it catches on - Look what it did for Jackson Pollock!
)
Unfortunately the combination of programming skills and the artistic talent that enables someone to convey a story is rare. If you add to that the ability to come up with acceptable graphics, you can begin to see why so few games end up being universally popular.
If you're concerned about certain aspects of your talent the best idea maybe to try to form a group of people who can work together and indeed most of the best games have been produced that way. The main problem with a development team is probably time. To the best of my knowledge nobody is writing these games as a full time occupation, so one member of the team may have to wait several weeks for another to complete their part. The other common obstacle is ego. It shouldn't take you long to identify people producing games which, while good, continue to have the same fundemental problems that players have been mentioning since the developer released his first game. These developers seem content to ignore any criticism rather than share the credit for what could have been a really excellent game.
Good luck with your project. I look forward to playing the results
One of my most-voiced complaints is that certain games seem to exist only because the developer wanted to show off some new trick he'd learnt. The story has to come first.
Players want to be absorbed into the world the author has imagined. In order to do that, as well as having a good story, there should be no jarring interfaces such as the sudden introduction of a different way of controlling objects or gameplay. Players are pretty-much content to learn a different technique for controlling things from game to game as long as it is consistent and doesn't require an extra pair of arms to operate.
Strictly speaking graphics aren't necessary. Although I'm personally not a huge fan of text-based games, a great many people are - and the best ones are very good indeed. What I would say is that, if you are going to use graphics you either make sure they are good or opt for something deliberately quirky and hope it catches on - Look what it did for Jackson Pollock!
)Unfortunately the combination of programming skills and the artistic talent that enables someone to convey a story is rare. If you add to that the ability to come up with acceptable graphics, you can begin to see why so few games end up being universally popular.
If you're concerned about certain aspects of your talent the best idea maybe to try to form a group of people who can work together and indeed most of the best games have been produced that way. The main problem with a development team is probably time. To the best of my knowledge nobody is writing these games as a full time occupation, so one member of the team may have to wait several weeks for another to complete their part. The other common obstacle is ego. It shouldn't take you long to identify people producing games which, while good, continue to have the same fundemental problems that players have been mentioning since the developer released his first game. These developers seem content to ignore any criticism rather than share the credit for what could have been a really excellent game.
Good luck with your project. I look forward to playing the results
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kessie8yl - legend of the South Seas
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Re: Game design
by sylakone2 » Tue, 13Aug27 13:24
I am also in agreement with what has already been said although my current project I have actually created the characters in poser before the story.
In this case the characters are writing themselves from there appearance I'm fleshing out their personlaity and that is helping the way the story evolves.
I use Tlaero's adventure created and I usually import the picture then work out the hot points from there and put in the code required.
For the story side I recently found a choose your own adventure writing tool called Inklewriter. It's brilliant for our kind of genre as you can write your story with all of its arcs by simply adding an option in your story where a choice is required and write that arc then at any time you can go back to any previous choice and write in additional arcs as well as joining arcs together where needed. On top of that as you're writing the story with all of your differnet arcs it produces a flow map that you can look at to see the tree of your stories with all of its arcs.
I highly recommend it for our genre of game http://www.inklestudios.com/inklewriter.
It's a free online tool and very intuitive and easy to learn.
Good luck with your project if you are like me and you love the artistic part but aren't that great at the story side it's a good idea to get someone to help.
I have struggled with this as my strong point is the graphics not the story side.
I'm good at coming up with ideas for the story but find it very hard to put them into words that portray my idea's plus my punctuation is not great as you can probably tell.
I am trying to get outside input for the story of my games it would be great to team up with someone who has great writing skills.
Anyway I hope we have all been helpful.
Sy
In this case the characters are writing themselves from there appearance I'm fleshing out their personlaity and that is helping the way the story evolves.
I use Tlaero's adventure created and I usually import the picture then work out the hot points from there and put in the code required.
For the story side I recently found a choose your own adventure writing tool called Inklewriter. It's brilliant for our kind of genre as you can write your story with all of its arcs by simply adding an option in your story where a choice is required and write that arc then at any time you can go back to any previous choice and write in additional arcs as well as joining arcs together where needed. On top of that as you're writing the story with all of your differnet arcs it produces a flow map that you can look at to see the tree of your stories with all of its arcs.
I highly recommend it for our genre of game http://www.inklestudios.com/inklewriter.
It's a free online tool and very intuitive and easy to learn.
Good luck with your project if you are like me and you love the artistic part but aren't that great at the story side it's a good idea to get someone to help.
I have struggled with this as my strong point is the graphics not the story side.
I'm good at coming up with ideas for the story but find it very hard to put them into words that portray my idea's plus my punctuation is not great as you can probably tell.
I am trying to get outside input for the story of my games it would be great to team up with someone who has great writing skills.
Anyway I hope we have all been helpful.
Sy
Cheers Sy
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sylakone2 - lagoon predator
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Re: Game design
by ExtraStiffy » Tue, 13Aug27 16:21
What I'm getting at here is I have an enormous gift/talent for creative writing, but zero programming/design skills. I look at 3d modeling programs and my eyes glaze over as I sit there thinking, "Wow...look at all the pretty buttons on the menu bar!" I look at programming code and think, "That's not 'gobbledygook'... that's gobbledyGEEK'!" as my eyes glaze over and the headache sets in.
Years ago, when I was in college, instead of applying myself and really hitting the books and paying due diligence to the coursework, I spent the vast majority of my free time (and even some of my class time) designing and running scenarios for various RPG games (most notably, WarHammer FRPG). I wrote and designed adventures for solos, small groups of two, three, or four, all the way up to a massive (and unwieldy) campaign for nineteen players. My brain is not wired for amphibological, vague conceptualizations such as "let x = whatever". Case in point: I had to take algebra four times from high school through college just to finally "pass" it with a "D". It's the worst grade (or series of grades) I've ever gotten in anything in my entire life. I've been bad at math as far back as I can remember. Now, today, they'd just teach me "new math", and I'd probably do fine, but back then, I just couldn't wrap my head around formulae. Case in point #2: I positively ROCKED at every science course I ever took...right up until we hit Avogadro's Number in Chemistry. If it's something concrete that I can lay my hands on, or a formula that I can relate to some physical construct, then I'm fine, but indefinite variables leave me spinning my wheels. Case in point #3: Going back to the problem I had with algebra, for the life of me, I could not grasp a simple concept like "slope" (rise/run) at all, ever. It wasn't until years later when I was working in residential construction and we got to making stair cases that I had the eponymous "Eureka!" moment, and suddenly the light bulb came on, and everything clicked into place. All of which goes to explain why, even though I have a Bachelor's Degree, I drive a truck for a living, or would, if I wasn't currently unemployed.
I have, as you have most likely already surmised, ZERO talent and/or skill at programming. Insofar as 3D modelling and rendering, I know what I like, but I couldn't begin to draw it or tell someone else how to do it. Furthermore, as you can tell simply by reading this (and all of my posts), I am possessed of a vocabulary and, may I be so bold as to suggest, virtuosity, of the English language and grammar which many, if not most, people today seem to lack. This is not an attempt on my part to "pat myself on the back" for my language skills. As Tlaero put it in "Coffee with Keisha"; "Equally skilled, but at different things".
Having said all of that, I'm done with text-based AIF. I've gone through CYOO2, and Hyperdreams, and cannot get past more than a couple of pages before the 5th-grade level English drives me to distraction and makes me want to rip my hair out.
What I need is someone who has that requisite programming skill who may or may not have his own (not being sexist, it's proper grammar) plot in mind or who is willing to collaborate on a project/plan. If he (again, proper grammar) also has the modeling skill, so much the better, if not, then we would then need to find a third person to handle that.
So, to get back to my original question, if someone has a 3d rendered model and wants to incorporate it into a a Tlaero/Phreaky, Chaotic-type 3D story, I can, quite possibly, be of assistance. However, I need to see that character through YOUR eyes, if I am to write a plot line around it. Conversely, if I have an idea for a character, then whomever handles the modelling needs to design that model true to MY vision, and not as HE sees it.
If I can find a 3D drawing program that doesn't make me feel like I need a Master's Degree in computer science to use it, fine, I'll take a stab at drawing, but it would seem to me the better option would be to hit the ground running, so to speak, and jump in with others who are equally skilled in their end of the workload.
Years ago, when I was in college, instead of applying myself and really hitting the books and paying due diligence to the coursework, I spent the vast majority of my free time (and even some of my class time) designing and running scenarios for various RPG games (most notably, WarHammer FRPG). I wrote and designed adventures for solos, small groups of two, three, or four, all the way up to a massive (and unwieldy) campaign for nineteen players. My brain is not wired for amphibological, vague conceptualizations such as "let x = whatever". Case in point: I had to take algebra four times from high school through college just to finally "pass" it with a "D". It's the worst grade (or series of grades) I've ever gotten in anything in my entire life. I've been bad at math as far back as I can remember. Now, today, they'd just teach me "new math", and I'd probably do fine, but back then, I just couldn't wrap my head around formulae. Case in point #2: I positively ROCKED at every science course I ever took...right up until we hit Avogadro's Number in Chemistry. If it's something concrete that I can lay my hands on, or a formula that I can relate to some physical construct, then I'm fine, but indefinite variables leave me spinning my wheels. Case in point #3: Going back to the problem I had with algebra, for the life of me, I could not grasp a simple concept like "slope" (rise/run) at all, ever. It wasn't until years later when I was working in residential construction and we got to making stair cases that I had the eponymous "Eureka!" moment, and suddenly the light bulb came on, and everything clicked into place. All of which goes to explain why, even though I have a Bachelor's Degree, I drive a truck for a living, or would, if I wasn't currently unemployed.
I have, as you have most likely already surmised, ZERO talent and/or skill at programming. Insofar as 3D modelling and rendering, I know what I like, but I couldn't begin to draw it or tell someone else how to do it. Furthermore, as you can tell simply by reading this (and all of my posts), I am possessed of a vocabulary and, may I be so bold as to suggest, virtuosity, of the English language and grammar which many, if not most, people today seem to lack. This is not an attempt on my part to "pat myself on the back" for my language skills. As Tlaero put it in "Coffee with Keisha"; "Equally skilled, but at different things".
Having said all of that, I'm done with text-based AIF. I've gone through CYOO2, and Hyperdreams, and cannot get past more than a couple of pages before the 5th-grade level English drives me to distraction and makes me want to rip my hair out.
What I need is someone who has that requisite programming skill who may or may not have his own (not being sexist, it's proper grammar) plot in mind or who is willing to collaborate on a project/plan. If he (again, proper grammar) also has the modeling skill, so much the better, if not, then we would then need to find a third person to handle that.
So, to get back to my original question, if someone has a 3d rendered model and wants to incorporate it into a a Tlaero/Phreaky, Chaotic-type 3D story, I can, quite possibly, be of assistance. However, I need to see that character through YOUR eyes, if I am to write a plot line around it. Conversely, if I have an idea for a character, then whomever handles the modelling needs to design that model true to MY vision, and not as HE sees it.
If I can find a 3D drawing program that doesn't make me feel like I need a Master's Degree in computer science to use it, fine, I'll take a stab at drawing, but it would seem to me the better option would be to hit the ground running, so to speak, and jump in with others who are equally skilled in their end of the workload.
Don't sweat the petty things. And while you're at it... don't pet the sweaty things.
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ExtraStiffy - great white shark
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Re: Game design
by Super » Tue, 13Aug27 19:18
Well, I'm using sims 3 as a modeling software since I suck at 3d models or anything visual. And tlaero's engine doesn't require much programming skill. But I fear I might give up and screw you up, so I don't know about teaming up. Plus I want to play more vdategames and I couldn't if I made it. Plus I'm more of a story guy myself, and our stories might not gel.
So I guess what to take from this is that tlaero's engine isn't too difficult to operate
So I guess what to take from this is that tlaero's engine isn't too difficult to operate
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Re: Game design
by ExtraStiffy » Tue, 13Aug27 20:39
No, really... when I say that my eyes glaze over and I can't tell up from down or heads from tails on design, programming, and engines, I mean it. I've downloaded Adventure Creator, read (or tried to) the tutorials, and looked at the mock-ups and blank pages. You stand a better chance of teaching a blind transhumeral amputee with hosmer hooks how to sculpt Michelangelo's "David" than in getting me to understand that stuff.
As it turns out, this post may be a moot point, since I just got a call for orientation on a job offer from three weeks ago. So... fingers crossed.
As it turns out, this post may be a moot point, since I just got a call for orientation on a job offer from three weeks ago. So... fingers crossed.
Don't sweat the petty things. And while you're at it... don't pet the sweaty things.
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ExtraStiffy - great white shark
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Re: Game design
by prayForPlague » Tue, 13Aug27 21:32
Just suggesting you give Twine a try since you are a writer. Twine is great because it really is just a tool for writing games ... ok there are a few bits of optional 'code'. Take a look at this sample passage from my game NDGA:
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Re: Game design
by kessie8yl » Tue, 13Aug27 23:21
ExtraStiffy wrote:No, really... when I say that my eyes glaze over and I can't tell up from down or heads from tails on design, programming, and engines, I mean it. I've downloaded Adventure Creator, read (or tried to) the tutorials, and looked at the mock-ups and blank pages. You stand a better chance of teaching a blind transhumeral amputee with hosmer hooks how to sculpt Michelangelo's "David" than in getting me to understand that stuff.
As it turns out, this post may be a moot point, since I just got a call for orientation on a job offer from three weeks ago. So... fingers crossed.
I know what you mean but it goes back to my earlier point. Unfortunately there are developers who assume coming up with the story is the easy part.
M'n'F are a prime example - although I admit I've never bothered with their paysite, so I stand to be corrected if the seemingly endless supply of samples aren't representative of the actual games. They seem to be a fairly "professional" outfit, yet they still churn out the same old stuff.
It's even worse when a "hobby developer" sets out to impress us. Once you've started playing it becomes obvious he had one scene in mind and was so excited by it, he skipped over minor details like plot and character development so he could concentrate on his masterpiece - which still ends up looking to us like the aftermath of a terrible incident in the factory where they make crash-test dummies
Text-based games can be just as guilty - between the "naughty bits" is often just a series of mazes with the added frustration of some illogical verb/noun combinations thrown in for good measure.
And, whatever the platform, as for the "naughty bits" themselves... Well, as the old punchline goes; "Doesn't anybody just fuck anymore?"
I know I'm stating the obvious but that's why the Sharks, Tlearos and a few others stand out from the crowd. When it's done well we're willing to forgive the rest and be grateful. However, you only have to read the typical responses; "How many endings are there?", "Why can't I have sex with X?", "I've got endings 2, 4 and 7" and the evergreen "Can someone pm me a walkthrough?" (the latter usually appearing within 5 minutes of the link to the game being posted), to show the same "get to the money shot" mentality is just as rife on the player's side. I imagine the sort of person who, if they even possess a copy of classics like Fanny Hill or Lady Chatterly's Lover, have probably only ever read the "sports pages".
I have said it before, but it does make me wonder why Shark & co bother sometimes. Pearls before swine.
Coming back to your ideas about collaboration, it seems to me the senisble approach would be for a developer to seek out someone who can come up with a good story and maybe someone else who could draw it. I imagine it would be the development that took up the most time/effort, so they'd have to want to do it - but we know they exist because we see the evidence posted in the lagoon.
Maybe Shark would consider opening up a "Help Wanted" board as an experiment? If the idea took off I could see the more competent individuals in each field talent spotting each other and gradually coming together to form "super-teams"... Who knows? It might just be the shot in the arm this genre needs...
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kessie8yl - legend of the South Seas
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Re: Game design
by tlaero » Wed, 13Aug28 06:51
Everyone is different, but here's my order:
First and foremost, I work out the storyline reason why sex is a challenge. Without that, you don't have a game.
Second, I work out a ton of details about the characters while my artist (usually Phreaky) goes off and models them.
Third I write the story outline at the granularity of scenes.
Fourth I start to work on the first scene and describe the images needed to the artist. When I get the images, I write the scene, add the hit targets, etc.
Then I repeat step 4 over and over again for each scene.
Tlaero
First and foremost, I work out the storyline reason why sex is a challenge. Without that, you don't have a game.
Second, I work out a ton of details about the characters while my artist (usually Phreaky) goes off and models them.
Third I write the story outline at the granularity of scenes.
Fourth I start to work on the first scene and describe the images needed to the artist. When I get the images, I write the scene, add the hit targets, etc.
Then I repeat step 4 over and over again for each scene.
Tlaero
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