Jordan 500 by leonizer

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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby TheBrain » Sun, 10Jul04 11:38

Graen wrote : @justme: This is a fundamental problem in game design. The game designer wants the player to be able to do as much as possible, but when it comes time to reward the player for their efforts it takes a significant investment of time and resources to account for all the choices the player may have made.

I would hardly call this a fundamental problem (i.e. hard to solve by its nature), you say it yourself: it just takes time and resources to account for many ways to play the game. But given one of those ways it is not an issue to come up with an ending and implement it.

Personally I think the endings as they are now are a bit of a lazy design, they are barely related to the gameplay or the choices involved. To illustrate this, if you name the 5 actual endings A to E, then given the 3 choices in the end this is the way it selects them:
Choice 1: if (refuse old guy) A else B
Choice 2: if (orgy) C else D
Choice 3: E
Even for a non-programmer it should be clear that there isn't much going on in terms of design here. Note that this is unrelated to the writing and graphics of the endings, it's merely about the decision of when to trigger what ending. In my opinion with such an overly simple selection no matter how good the actual ending is it quickly regresses to a 'click next'-game.

I can once again illustrate this by giving this simple 'walkthrough' for anyone still hunting all endings with the least effort required (only need to play through seriously once, and click through once):
For the 'positive' club/producer endings: Work your way up to 3000 reputation (this shouldn't be too hard, raise you looks a bit to enter the stripclub and gain access to B class customers and just grind your way there). At 2k rep the movie producer story will kick in, participate in the orgy. At 3k rep visit the club, story kicks in 2 days later, make sure you turn down the old guy. At day 98, close your browser, this will save the game. Then open the game twice, select continue, play each to the end and select the first two ending choices. Voila, two endings done with only playing once!
The other 3 endings are even more simple, just sleep repeatedly to day 98, close your browser. Then open the game three times, select continue, and skip to the end, selecting each ending option once with the 3 games you have open.

That's 5 endings with only really playing once.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby justme » Sun, 10Jul04 22:03

Graen wrote : @justme: This is a fundamental problem in game design. The game designer wants the player to be able to do as much as possible, but when it comes time to reward the player for their efforts it takes a significant investment of time and resources to account for all the choices the player may have made.

Regarding your questions:
No. 1: Right now it makes more sense to let the mafia boss have his way, as there is no reward stat nor story-wise to help Brooke.
No. 2: From my experience with stripping (in the game :p) you're paid based on your "strip tease" stat, with a chance of multiplier bonus. Stripping really isn't the best way to earn money in the game, so you're probably right that it wasn't considered as an attractive option to the player.

Would I love to see a new version of this game, with an expanded story and more endings and surprises? Hell Yes! I actually think this is Leonizer's best game since LOP2:Platinum. [img]smile/rosebud.gif[/img]


Thanks for the response. I've seen how much time my friend puts into her games. So I respect all the work involved in the game and the decision to share it with everyone. It just seems the player is being guided a little too heavily toward the escort aspect.

Question 1: Your answer was my impression as well. I was just wondering if maybe there was a behind the scenes effect since I haven't seen all the endings.

2. I was guessing that maybe looks/clothing was a factor in the stripping pay. The payment felt like it was adjusted down if I kept having her strip. I maybe imagined it, but if I had her do something else, the pay would be better when she stripped again.

I agree that I enjoy this game the most of his since lop. I do think lop is better due to more balance and I prefer a student character over an escort. I get the impression creating the game was on a limited time schedule. The creator appears to be absorbed by his new project, which is a good thing for him and people who play his games. I just think this game would benefit from some further adjustments.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby justme » Sun, 10Jul04 22:13

TheBrain wrote :
I would hardly call this a fundamental problem (i.e. hard to solve by its nature), you say it yourself: it just takes time and resources to account for many ways to play the game. But given one of those ways it is not an issue to come up with an ending and implement it.

Personally I think the endings as they are now are a bit of a lazy design, they are barely related to the gameplay or the choices involved. To illustrate this, if you name the 5 actual endings A to E, then given the 3 choices in the end this is the way it selects them:
Choice 1: if (refuse old guy) A else B
Choice 2: if (orgy) C else D
Choice 3: E
Even for a non-programmer it should be clear that there isn't much going on in terms of design here. Note that this is unrelated to the writing and graphics of the endings, it's merely about the decision of when to trigger what ending. In my opinion with such an overly simple selection no matter how good the actual ending is it quickly regresses to a 'click next'-game.

I can once again illustrate this by giving this simple 'walkthrough' for anyone still hunting all endings with the least effort required (only need to play through seriously once, and click through once):
For the 'positive' club/producer endings: Work your way up to 3000 reputation (this shouldn't be too hard, raise you looks a bit to enter the stripclub and gain access to B class customers and just grind your way there). At 2k rep the movie producer story will kick in, participate in the orgy. At 3k rep visit the club, story kicks in 2 days later, make sure you turn down the old guy. At day 98, close your browser, this will save the game. Then open the game twice, select continue, play each to the end and select the first two ending choices. Voila, two endings done with only playing once!
The other 3 endings are even more simple, just sleep repeatedly to day 98, close your browser. Then open the game three times, select continue, and skip to the end, selecting each ending option once with the 3 games you have open.

That's 5 endings with only really playing once.


Thanks for the breakdown. I still think the creator lost interest in the project or was more interested in starting on his next project. I would imagine a sixth ending could have been made to allow for players who ignored escorting. She could look back on the 100 days and decide it was a good thing she didn't become an escort. She would say the money would have been nice, but in the end, she was true to herself.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby Graen » Mon, 10Jul05 05:06

TheBrain wrote :
Personally I think the endings as they are now are a bit of a lazy design, they are barely related to the gameplay or the choices involved. To illustrate this, if you name the 5 actual endings A to E, then given the 3 choices in the end this is the way it selects them:
Choice 1: if (refuse old guy) A else B
Choice 2: if (orgy) C else D
Choice 3: E

As you've pointed out, these are all "Choice" based endings, chosen based on the the player's choice during story events. None of these endings reflect on the actions of the player during non-story-based game-play. Even then, the story ignores the actions of the player, for example: If the player doesn't whore themselves out to any clients during the first 5 days of game-play, Jordan still tells Brooke that she has become a prostitute, even if all she has done was sell blood and work in the clothing store.

TheBrain wrote : Even for a non-programmer it should be clear that there isn't much going on in terms of design here. Note that this is unrelated to the writing and graphics of the endings, it's merely about the decision of when to trigger what ending.

Not just the planing out of various endings, but the "writing and graphics" you refer to all take up time and resources, and the more endings the designer plans for and implements compound the amount of time and resource he/she will have to dedicate to the various endings.

One example I would like to give is from the original "Hentai Highschool" by Pooolka. In that game, there are a total of twelve different endings. In this case, all the endings are "Stat" based.

The following is his actual code from the game, comparing various stats and then assigning which ending to process.
if (((school.Sex > 95) && (school.Joy > 80)) && (school.Reputation > 50))
{
num = 9;
}
else if (((school.Sex > 80) && (school.Knowledge > 90)) && (school.Reputation > 40))
{
num = 4;
}
else if (((school.Behaviour > 75) && (school.Sex > 80)) && (school.Reputation > 30))
{
num = 2;
}
else if ((school.Morality > 60) && (school.Sex > 50))
{
num = 7;
}
else if ((((school.Sex > 40) && (school.Morality > 40)) && (school.Joy > 40)) && (school.Behaviour > 40))
{
num = 11;
}
else if ((school.Knowledge > 60) && (school.Sex > 80))
{
num = 6;
}
else if ((school.Sex > 80) && (school.Morality < 10))
{
num = 10;
}
else if ((school.Sex > 50) && (school.Behaviour < 40))
{
num = 1;
}
else if (school.Sex > 75)
{
num = 13;
}
else if ((school.Behaviour > 85) && (school.Sex < 50))
{
num = 3;
}
else if ((school.Reputation < 20) && (school.Joy < 20))
{
num = 8;
}
else if (school.Reputation < 10)
{
num = 5;
}
You should notice that the endings are coded in such a way that they all can individually trigger, if certain conditions are met. Also I would like to point out that they are ordered in a specific sequence so that an ending with lower requirements does not take precedence over another ending with higher requirements. This is the kind of planning and forethought that would have to go into the design of any game that has multiple endings to function properly. That doesn't even cover writing all the dialogue and, in Leonizer's case, rendering all the artwork to go with each specific ending. Then of course there should be a certain amount of testing to make sure everything is working as intended.

Would I love to see 12 different endings to Jordan500? Sure, if it was appropriate. I certainly understand a desire to see more added to the game based on the choices the player makes.

If Jordan only donates blood for half the game, does she become spokesperson for the Red Cross, even if she later works at the Platinum Club?

What if all she does is work at the clothing store? Does she have a sad ending where she just lives a boring life without any excitement selling clothes to people much more interesting than her?

What if she sucks and fucks politicians and movie stars to no end, but her "Strip Tease" stat is the highest stat she has, does she suddenly become a world famous stripper?

I'm sure most of us here can think of at least three different endings and/or events to be added to the game. It's just a question of when it becomes too much to code for and produce content for. And of course, when does Leonizer get bored and want to move on to another project?

As I said, I'm all for "More, More, More!" but that takes a lot, whether the events are only based on player's choices, or player's stats. Having events based on "Choices" and "Stats" certainly allows a designer to diversify and expand his/her story/game, but they still come at a cost.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby Squeeky » Mon, 10Jul05 06:34

BIG QUESTION.

I've noted tlaero has produced a tool for creating a structure which appears to give the author a lot of control as to how an HTML written game will develop, without the bugs of which we are accustomed in that genre (providing of course that the "storyboard" planning is correct).

I realise that tlaero's tool uses javascrïpt and therefore would not run under Flash. However might such a utility written in Actionscrïpt make such scenarios easier for the author, like, the programming has been virtually done, just add data?

Or am I over-simplifying this issue?
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby Graen » Mon, 10Jul05 07:25

Squeeky wrote : BIG QUESTION.

...

I realise that tlaero's tool uses javascrïpt and therefore would not run under Flash. However might such a utility written in Actionscrïpt make such scenarios easier for the author, like, the programming has been virtually done, just add data?

Or am I over-simplifying this issue?
The only thing that comes to mind would be RPG Maker, of which support has been dropped.

That said, I would not be surprised to learn that Leonizer has made some personal scrïpts that he uses in his work to make creating his games easier. I am not aware of any other free programs or scrïpts out there to assist authors in making these types of games however.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby TheBrain » Thu, 10Jul08 07:22

Squeeky, Flash already takes care of most of the programming if you're not trying to do too exquisite stuff. The idea of scenes fit seamlessly as frames in an animation which progresses manually. Of course it would be possible to make a framework like tlaero's, but it wouldn't have much added value over Flash itself.

As such this issue is really just about design or even just writing an interactive story.

An idea that just popped into my mind is that in this case the ending could have been split into two parts, career (for example, whore, stripper and saleswoman) and love (ending up with either the gym guy, movie dude or the girl from the club). If you combine those you technically get 9 unique endings, even though they only consists of 6 scenes (one for each item in the career and love categories).
And what's more is that such a setup would not block one or more 'special' endings, for example if you end up as a whore and with the movie producer the ending could be a special 'porn star' ending.
But I guess in the end especially these love endings require more optional interactions with the characters to allow the game to select which is most appropriate. Glossing over this, I don't think the setup I mentioned would be more resource intensive than the current endings.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby devil15697 » Thu, 10Jul15 20:58

please help me how to drive the car
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby Rikwar » Fri, 10Jul16 10:32

devil15697 wrote : please help me how to drive the car

The last version of the game as the car removed, play the game from Playforce 'link is on the first page of this thread'
if you have a car your playing it from another website 'old version'...
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby andPS2 » Fri, 10Jul16 16:43

how do u get the reputation up high enough
for the orgy ?
i usually manage to make it to 2000
and meet the producer guy
but then there isnt enough time to make
it to 3000
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby TheBrain » Sat, 10Jul17 03:19

andPS2 wrote : how do u get the reputation up high enough
for the orgy ?
i usually manage to make it to 2000
and meet the producer guy
but then there isnt enough time to make
it to 3000

If I remember correctly the orgy triggers 5 days after you meet the producer guy, you don't need 3k rep for that.

Anyway, the key to getting rep is seeing a lot of customers, but make sure your stats are high enough if you move on to B or A class customers. If you fail to have high enough stats you get only a fraction of the money/reputation. If you play the intro correctly to get all stats, C class customers should be easy enough to get all stats up.

Additionally, having the mob boss fuck you and your friend gives another 200 (?) rep.

The way I played it: Initially do a cycle of donate blood, sleep, donate, sleep, donate, sleep, heal. This should be enough to get the bed, you can do it another time if you want to have some more money on hand. Then buy the +2 makeup kit. Then every day see two customers, do makeup, then sleep. Repeat until morale is too low, replenish morale (massage at the beauty center or sauna at the gym). And repeat.
When your stats seem high enough, buy some better clothes and work out a week at the gym (also do some self defense as it comes in useful at the strip club). Move on the B class customers, same story. Once you hit 3k rep visit the club, then continue there if you don't fail too often. That should take care of every ending ;).
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby kassak » Tue, 10Jul20 22:38

Great game!

I would love more dressing, accessories for the girl.

Moving around with the car was a nice try for something diferent, as people said thow, not that easygoing.

congrats for the game.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby jodiedavies » Wed, 10Jul28 09:35

Has development stopped on this or is it ongoing?

Love the game and the storyline, makes me want to follow in jordans footsteps! Hehe!
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby ad_reloaded » Mon, 10Nov29 15:00

Awesome game Leon. my heartiest thx to you for developing such a game.
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Re: Jordan 500 by leonizer

Postby justme » Sun, 11Jan02 10:57

I've tried to play the game twice now recently and each time it failed to generate the endings. Are the links broke or have they been taken down? This was one thing that I didn't like about the game. Having to rely on an internet connection to locate the links as what happens when the links are no longer available. No more game endings.
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