Need opinions on my Game Renders

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Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby GDS » Sat, 16Jan02 18:19

I am doing a small game, but my PC is not that strong, so it takes so much time to render...
I made some quick and slow renders, and I wanna know if they are passable as a game CG.


First Comparison:
I really like the IMAGE 2; The lights and everything Its amazing,
But its kind of impossible to make a game like this because of the time it took, And I don't see me anytime soon with money to upgrade my RIG.
Image
IMAGE 1:
30 seconds to Render
Image
IMAGE 2:
1h and 40m to Render

Second Comparison:
Here I used a more simple Render kind.
I dont think there are a lot of differences between this 2, you can only note the level of detail if you zoom it.
Image
IMAGE 3:
3 minutes to render
Image
IMAGE 4:
30 minutes to render


SO you guys think A game with renders like 1 or 4 can be a good game?
[*]Suddenly a Party!:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3965
[*]Matt and the Bus stop Girl:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3666
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby tlaero » Sat, 16Jan02 18:27

First, welcome to the Lagoon, GDS. I really like your avatar picture.

I assume image 1 is using the default Daz lighting? I pretty sure phreaky used default lighting on our first 3 games, and they were met with some acclaim. You can definitely do a game with images that look like the faster renders. Lighting is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not as important as poses, situations, characterizations, and plot.

Aside from the artwork, what tool are you using to actually put the game together? If you haven't decided yet, check out the Adventure Creator thread in this forum. That's what a number of us use to make our games.

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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby GDS » Sat, 16Jan02 18:34

tlaero wrote:First, welcome to the Lagoon, GDS. I really like your avatar picture.

I assume image 1 is using the default Daz lighting? I pretty sure phreaky used default lighting on our first 3 games, and they were met with some acclaim. You can definitely do a game with images that look like the faster renders. Lighting is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not as important as poses, situations, characterizations, and plot.

Aside from the artwork, what tool are you using to actually put the game together? If you haven't decided yet, check out the Adventure Creator thread in this forum. That's what a number of us use to make our games.

Tlaero

Thanks dude, I actually linger on this forum looking for walthoughs for months now, but made a ACC just today.

Default lighting on all 4 pics, the IMAGE 2 I rendered with IRAY.
The tool:
I made some Android games(RPGs mostly) and have some Really good already pre-made engines on GMS 1.4,
GMS works wonders on PC, So I plan to use it instead of the adventure maker
[*]Suddenly a Party!:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3965
[*]Matt and the Bus stop Girl:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3666
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby tlaero » Sat, 16Jan02 18:48

Cool, I look forward to seeing your game.

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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Super » Sat, 16Jan02 18:55

You may not want to call tlaero a dude ;p

Anyway, yeah the ones that take less than a minute work well enough I think

Also, what is this engine you'll be using? What types of games will you be making gameplay wise? Just curious
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby GDS » Sat, 16Jan02 18:59

Super wrote:You may not want to call tlaero a dude ;p

Anyway, yeah the ones that take less than a minute work well enough I think

Also, what is this engine you'll be using? What types of games will you be making gameplay wise? Just curious


I'm be using the GMS(gamemaker studio)

I want to make a game that is most with multiple paths and chat,
Really like the Dreaming with Elsa from Tlaero(so most like it),I have a big ideia but probably will make smaller due to this Render Times.
[*]Suddenly a Party!:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3965
[*]Matt and the Bus stop Girl:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3666
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Super » Sat, 16Jan02 21:00

Hm interesting. Perhaps you could try using some more gamey elements with your game making software. But hey do as you will and ask for help if you ever want it :p
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Squeeky » Sun, 16Jan03 01:55

I don't either of your #1 or #4 images.
Obviously image quality will make or break a game, but that also depends upon your audience; certainly that would need to be high for commercial exposure but I'm sure most Lagooners would be comfortable with the lesser renditions, and value your enterprise for what it is.
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Mortze » Sun, 16Jan03 04:37

tlaero wrote:Lighting is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not as important as poses, situations, characterizations, and plot.

I will strongly disagree with you m'Lady. Lighting isn't less important than the rest. Awesome poses, situations, characterizations and plots can be ruined with bad lighting. It is as important when it comes to visual medium like visual games, photography and cinema/television. It is what binds together a scene and gives it a sense of realism (or fantasy if that's the intention).
We did have such a case recently didn't we? We had the pose, the model, the characterization, but our girl was ugly due to the light and the panel was ruined.

I do not want to scare you GDS. On the contrary. I'll help the best I can.
I thought as you did in the begining. My machine sucked and I got frustrated with longs and longs renderings. Then I got a better machine.
Oddly, it's experience and learning that reduced my rendering times, not the new machine. See, I have a ratio of 1 to 6 with my new machine, meaning it renders 6X faster than my old one. A pic that would take me 30 minutes in my laptop only takes max 5 minutes in my desktop now. That's wonderfull, alright.
But today, I rendered several pics for a scene and they took me not more than 10 seconds each. That would mean 1 minute in my old computer.
The lighting I used? 2 spotlights (with shadowing) and 6 distant lights (without shadowing).
And here is where you can cut your rendering time by half or more.

See, you rendered in IRay. That means you ask your computer to render on graphic card computing only and not your processor. Either you have a powerfull graphic card or there is no point in using IRay. Sure, Iray does better pics in a way. But you gotta make the best with the equipment you got.
First, tell us what rig you have in terms of processor, graphic card and RAM.

If your graphic card isn't top, like mine, better use the 3DEngine in DAZ3D. Dreaming with Elsa was rendered in my laptop with 3DEngine but Pandora was rendered in my new machine, still with 3DEngine.

Try to change to 3DEngine and make a test, posting the results here. I bet you'll render faster than with Iray.
Don't get cocky at first. Try a simple 2 spotlights scene. A main spotlight to give the main light on the character, and a second on to fill the shadows done by the first one.

I looked for tutorials too in this forum but there aren't much. I'm considering asking the comunity if there would be any interest in us artists giving like tutorials or lessons. But I don't want to sound presumptuous and cocky, because I know I have so much and much to learn yet. But I know people could learn a few things from us.

What you guys think?
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Squeeky » Sun, 16Jan03 05:41

I quite like that concept, and I'm sure it would have value, however I do perceive a few issues. I've PMd Mortze to gain some clarification along with a potential framework which Shark might find acceptable. I won't go into those matters. I'd like to see what Mortze actually visualises and if Shark finds such a proposal acceptable.
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby tlaero » Sun, 16Jan03 09:52

Mortze wrote:What you guys think?


I think I defer to you on all things visual. (-:

Listen to the man, GDS. He's one of the best artists around.

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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby GDS » Sun, 16Jan03 11:42

Mortze wrote:
tlaero wrote:Lighting is important, don't get me wrong, but it's not as important as poses, situations, characterizations, and plot.

I will strongly disagree with you m'Lady. Lighting isn't less important than the rest. Awesome poses, situations, characterizations and plots can be ruined with bad lighting. It is as important when it comes to visual medium like visual games, photography and cinema/television. It is what binds together a scene and gives it a sense of realism (or fantasy if that's the intention).
We did have such a case recently didn't we? We had the pose, the model, the characterization, but our girl was ugly due to the light and the panel was ruined.

I do not want to scare you GDS. On the contrary. I'll help the best I can.
I thought as you did in the begining. My machine sucked and I got frustrated with longs and longs renderings. Then I got a better machine.
Oddly, it's experience and learning that reduced my rendering times, not the new machine. See, I have a ratio of 1 to 6 with my new machine, meaning it renders 6X faster than my old one. A pic that would take me 30 minutes in my laptop only takes max 5 minutes in my desktop now. That's wonderfull, alright.
But today, I rendered several pics for a scene and they took me not more than 10 seconds each. That would mean 1 minute in my old computer.
The lighting I used? 2 spotlights (with shadowing) and 6 distant lights (without shadowing).
And here is where you can cut your rendering time by half or more.

See, you rendered in IRay. That means you ask your computer to render on graphic card computing only and not your processor. Either you have a powerfull graphic card or there is no point in using IRay. Sure, Iray does better pics in a way. But you gotta make the best with the equipment you got.
First, tell us what rig you have in terms of processor, graphic card and RAM.

If your graphic card isn't top, like mine, better use the 3DEngine in DAZ3D. Dreaming with Elsa was rendered in my laptop with 3DEngine but Pandora was rendered in my new machine, still with 3DEngine.

Try to change to 3DEngine and make a test, posting the results here. I bet you'll render faster than with Iray.
Don't get cocky at first. Try a simple 2 spotlights scene. A main spotlight to give the main light on the character, and a second on to fill the shadows done by the first one.

I looked for tutorials too in this forum but there aren't much. I'm considering asking the comunity if there would be any interest in us artists giving like tutorials or lessons. But I don't want to sound presumptuous and cocky, because I know I have so much and much to learn yet. But I know people could learn a few things from us.

What you guys think?


Thanks for the TIPs dude,

I have a GTX-770-2GB it have enough CudaCores to render but I found that slow down is due to it only having 2GB so no IRAY for me.

My CPU is an i5-4k That will take max of 30m to render(3dDelight) A full lightened scene with lots of texture which is acceptable.
Now Im going to take some Utube tutorials on lighting, because the 3Ddelight Light effects are way tricker than The IRAY:
Image
No, she doesnt have any kind of skin disease its just bad lighting + freckles
[*]Suddenly a Party!:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3965
[*]Matt and the Bus stop Girl:http://the-new-lagoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3666
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby Mortze » Sun, 16Jan03 15:59

GDS wrote:I have a GTX-770-2GB it have enough CudaCores to render but I found that slow down is due to it only having 2GB so no IRAY for me.

That's definitly not enough for IRay. I have a 4Gb GTX970 and it's not enough to render games. Sure, it operates well for a 1 pic render, but not for lots.
One small tip for IRay that might help you. Give it a try. I learned that the more light sources you put in a scene the faster IRay renders. Don't ask me why, but it has to do with the physics engine.

3DEngine isn't more complicated that IRay, but I'm biased since I started and work with it.

Another quick tip when you start using 3DEngine:
I know how it sucks to have a scene render for 30 minutes to see that the light isn't good or a pose is bad, making you start it all over again.
So, you have a quick way to make a test render for the whole scene.
At your Render Settings tab, you have the menu Shading Rate. That influences tons of your render time. I won't explain what it is exactly because, well, I don't have much clue, but the essential is:
- Between 0 and 0.50 it's for Professional renderings, like heavy games and movies and all. You'll only need that if you're already rendering fast.
- Between 0.51 and 1 it's for intermediary stuff. Not quite professional but you have plenty of good detailing. Enough for our games.
- Between 1 and 2 you loose some detail but small enough that it's very hard to notice.
- Above 2 here is where you make your render tests. Usually not good for a final product.
Basically, if I render a scene at Shading Rate (SR) 1 in 20 minutes it means that at SR 5 it will render in 4 minutes. At SR 0.10, it will render in 200 minutes. That's an aproximation.
To test your light, use SR 4. The figures and textures will look odd but the point is correcting pose and light.

I always start a rendering at SR 1. If it goes super fast, less than 1 minute, I drop the SR to 0.5 or less.

There are other parameters in 3DEngine but SR whould help you start cutting rendering time.

Give it a try with 2 or 3 spotlight sources and let us know of your results.
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby xviii » Mon, 16Jan04 09:26

Could you try a different rendering engine? I've never used Daz, but I have dabbled in other 3D programs, still my knowledge is limited so if I'm wrong here feel free to let me know.

Looking around I found Octane Renderer. I found this thread,
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic ... d84f2a8ffe
https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic ... 7&start=20

The results in the first post do not look good, but later the amended result shows that while looking less sharp and vibrant than iray the results looks more realistic in many ways. The second link to page 3 shows a better comparison as well with the shadows and contrast looking less dramatic but instead showing realistic subtle shadowing and less over exposure. I know the original author is saying that render time is similar, but Octane renderer allows for a lot more tweaking, one setting of which is texture size. This may help keep you below your video cards 2GB VRAM limit. In fact on page 3 one user is saying that all of their renders are faster on Octane than iray for their system after tweaking the right settings.

I hope linking to another forum is okay... I just did a google search for 'iray alternatives' and found it.
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Re: Need opinions on my Game Renders

Postby sylakone2 » Mon, 16Jan04 15:38

This is a good post to chat about.

I currently use daz3d with Iray for my game Model Friends which I'm currently working on.
I used poser with Firelfy for Inspiring Celina which I am also using for envying Celina since I started with poser and firefly render before I found Iray.

They all can take a long time.
I have good video cards but my CPU's are not very good.
So for me Iray or cpu renders like 3delight and Firefly take almost the same time to render.
I do use AO on the main lights and I use Indirect lighting when I am rendering with Firefly.
Indirect lighting definitely gives a much better quality of light but takes much longer to render.

One way to speed up your renders is to do like I have done with Model Friends.
I render the scene without the characters and high quality.
It takes quite a while but I can use that one render for multiple scenes.
Then I render just the character with different expressions and poses with similar lighting and save it as a png.
These renders are very fast due to minimal geometry.
I use Photoshop or the free alternative Gimp to superimpose the characters onto the rendered jpg of the scene.
This is fast and efficient way but is really only good for conversations.
For events I do full renders with the characters they do take a while but I think it's worth it.
I often work on the coding side of the game making process while an image is rendering so I can still work on it without losing the time it takes to render.

I hope this can help speed things up for you.

Like the other artists of Sharks I am also glad to help where I can.
Cheers Sy
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